Battleships come too late?

[jjkrause84]

Is it just me or does it seem like battleships come far too late? There is something strange about having an army of Great War Infs, gatling guns (why not MGs?), artillery, and....early modern-era frigates.

 

[Septic]

They're missing a WW1 style dreadnaught.

 

[Peacemongerer]

It's kind of dumb to wait until WWII-era type tech to get a unit that was nearing obsolecence. Their window was basically from 1905 when the Japanese used them effectively against the Russians until 1944 and 45 when American Aircraft Carriers tore the Japanese Yamato-class "super battleships" to pieces in battle after battle. A 40-year window of effectiveness in Civ should definitely be the 2nd-tier of the Modern Era, as implimented now. The difference is that the WWII infantry should be at the opener of the Atomic Era instead alongside contemporary tanks and bombers. Maybe make a seperate tech for them and whatnot with plastics and ballistics as a pre-req.

 

[Gort]

1944 and 45 when American Aircraft Carriers tore the Japanese Yamato-class "super battleships" to pieces in battle after battle

"Battle after battle" seems a bit hyperbolic, given that there were only two Yamato-class battleships ever completed.

 

[Drawmeus]

The point stands, though. Battleships were rendered obsolete by carrier fleets and it's odd to get them both on the same tech. Aircraft Carriers are the most powerful ships in the world, to this day, and they're oddly niche units in Civ.

 

[s0nny80y]

Guess what?

Their base range is three tiles away BUT
they do not have the +1 range promotion (unlike vanilla).
This means that you can, in fact, earn the +1 promotion for a range of FOUR tiles away!

Does it arrive too late from the tech tree? With this 'buff', I think not.

 

[Veneke]

They're missing a WW1 style dreadnaught.

Actually the Ironclad now fills this role admirably.

The problem is that modern battleships had a very short lifespan before being overtaken by Carriers. Unfortunately Carriers in Civ are rather underpowered so that doesn't actually happen in game meaning your Battleship is effective pretty much until the end of the game with the potential for the Missile Cruiser to overtake it.

Frankly, the entire naval tree is a bit curious. Late battleships is one thing, fleets of Frigates/Privateers/Submarines is just immersion breaking. Especially when you torpedo a battleship with your submarine and have your Privateers capture it...

 

[Kabloosh]

The point stands, though. Battleships were rendered obsolete by carrier fleets and it's odd to get them both on the same tech. Aircraft Carriers are the most powerful ships in the world, to this day, and they're oddly niche units in Civ.

Outside of nukes you could say they are in the game since you can launch 3 fighters or bombers from it. But really, a Missile Cruiser probably would be able to get in there and take down the carrier, especially with a cruise missile or if you are really douchey nuking their entire fleet.

I wouldn't know. I've never seen the AI get missile cruisers much less fighter jets in the game.

 

[Callonia]

I've said this before, I'll say this again, the Tech tree is simply too short and doesn't fill out enough and properly.

So you get stuff that obsoletes instantly when you get it. No such problem occured for me on civ 4.

 

[snoochems]

So you get stuff that obsoletes instantly when you get it. No such problem occured for me on civ 4.

This 100%.

E.G I can't seem to even finish a Longswords unit as Gunpowder is researched before the unit is finished.

 

[KnelRivendare]

They're missing a WW1 style dreadnaught.

^


Dreadnoughts are definatly missing, or Battlecruisers- if not for gameplay then for Immersion something that i always missed in Civ. but ok for this we got the modding community!

 

[Frosty_AUT]

They're missing a WW1 style dreadnaught.

I agree, though I'd prefer to see a pre-dreadnought (could be called "cruiser" or simply "capital ship"), since dreadnoughts were basically the first battleships. Even though pre-dreadnoughts became obsolete with the introduction of the dreadnought, they still made up a huge part of pretty much any navy around 1900 and even saw major usage in WWI and still some more in WWII.

Actually the Ironclad now fills this role admirably.

Except ironclads are melee units and not even capable of entering ocean tiles. And the gap in effectiveness between battleships and frigates is just HUGE, so adding an industrial era pre-dreadnought would be entirely justified, I think.

 

[Winston]

Yeah, I'd like to see something to fill the gap too because it does feel strange having wooden ships in the industrial age - personally I'd like to see the wooden ships arrive a tech earlier too so you get more time in the age of sail

 

[zeock9]

Try some of the mods that extends each eras where research takes just as long as in a marathon game but the buildings and units finish just as quick as in normal games.

You will get plenty use out of each and every units you build - most of my battleships I used well into an Information era as carrier escorts were upgrades from my medieval era wooden ships!

 

[nokmirt]

I agree, though I'd prefer to see a pre-dreadnought (could be called "cruiser" or simply "capital ship"), since dreadnoughts were basically the first battleships. Even though pre-dreadnoughts became obsolete with the introduction of the dreadnought, they still made up a huge part of pretty much any navy around 1900 and even saw major usage in WWI and still some more in WWII.



Except ironclads are melee units and not even capable of entering ocean tiles. And the gap in effectiveness between battleships and frigates is just HUGE, so adding an industrial era pre-dreadnought would be entirely justified, I think.

Ironclads can cross oceans at move of 3 hexes/per turn They remind me of an armored cruiser or something.

I do feel if you are going to add WWI land units, then you should add WWI sea units. Please devs give us a dreadnought, a four stacker destroyer, and a WWI sub.

Also, it would be nice to see a torpedo boat, used widely in WWI, and a battle cruiser. Give us an earlier carrier as well. Maybe a seaplane tender, which were used in WWI. Air ships also were important in WWI, for three reasons...

1. Air recon w/o and with attached biplanes, which made the search radius larger. Of course there were problems with retrieving search aircraft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtiss_F9C_Sparrowhawk

2. Bombing cities and other targets

3. ASW missions

Give us air recon missions! Only an idiot who has aircraft at their disposal would not try to use planes to see the enemy, or gather map info in times of peace.

Sure add a clause that your taking a risk of being caught if flying over friendly or neutral territory. If caught give a diplo penalty, or maybe the other nation DoWs in some cases.

In war though aircraft should be used for recon, for obvious important reasons, without them being used for this purpose we are made blind.

 

[jjkrause84]

Try some of the mods that extends each eras where research takes just as long as in a marathon game but the buildings and units finish just as quick as in normal games.

You will get plenty use out of each and every units you build - most of my battleships I used well into an Information era as carrier escorts were upgrades from my medieval era wooden ships!

Essentially, you are saying that, despite definite improvements, production is still too slow in Civ 5. Limited unti stacking would help lift the devs' fears of over-production, I think....

 

[Winston]

I'd definitely use extended eras mod if I could but unfortunately since Steam Workshop I have been unable to use any mods - I can subscribe, download, and install them but I can't run them. I don't know why this is and Valve haven't been helpful so far
I'm not going to be playing any mods for the foreseeable future unfortunately

 

[Barghaest]

The point stands, though. Battleships were rendered obsolete by carrier fleets and it's odd to get them both on the same tech. Aircraft Carriers are the most powerful ships in the world, to this day, and they're oddly niche units in Civ.

Actually, that's not entirely true. "Aircraft carriers" were in existence before WWII... they started around 1911 (not dedicated carriers per se but naval ships carrying planes) and while not as prevalent in navies as they are today, there were naval air launches. What took dominance of the seas from battleships and gave them to carriers was not the sudden appearance of carriers... it was the more advanced planes (which is pretty much how it works in Civ V, once you get WWII era fighters/bombers the carrier becomes more powerful).

 

[Louis XXIV]

They're missing a WW1 style dreadnaught.

Yeah, I agree. Ironclads are melee, right? This means that ranged Dreadnaughts would make sense.

 

[Kabloosh]

Actually, that's not entirely true. "Aircraft carriers" were in existence before WWII... they started around 1911 (not dedicated carriers per se but naval ships carrying planes) and while not as prevalent in navies as they are today, there were naval air launches. What took dominance of the seas from battleships and gave them to carriers was not the sudden appearance of carriers... it was the more advanced planes (which is pretty much how it works in Civ V, once you get WWII era fighters/bombers the carrier becomes more powerful).

They need to add a super carrier in the information age or something then. Have it require 1 aluminum or 1 uranium. Give it like 60 strength and allow it to house 6 air units including stealth bombers. Put it in the information age somewhere.