Battleships come too late?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by jjkrause84, Jun 30, 2012.

  1. Kurtbob

    Kurtbob Prince

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    I agree with the OP. Changes I would like to see:

    1. New Dreadnaught/Battlecruiser unit becomes available with Steam Power. Renders Frigate obsolete. Same movement restrictions as Ironcad (high coastal movement, low ocean movement), requires coal, 40 ranged attack. Obsolete with Battleship.
    -OR-
    Battleship moved to Replaceable Parts.

    2. Prize ships does not affect Industrial, Modern, Atomic Age, and Information age units.

    3. Carriers recieve a site bonus (aircraft recon) and give a small combat bonus (5-10%) to units (land and sea) within a certain radius (two -three hexes) while an aircraft is aboard.
    -OR-
    Give aircraft Recon missions.
     
  2. KnelRivendare

    KnelRivendare Warlord

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    meh a Stealth Bomber on a Carrier is a bit too unrealistic since the B2 Bomber got like 170ft Wingspan.
     
  3. Becephalus

    Becephalus King

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    Are you kidding, the whole point of the BTS expansion was fix the completely atrocious military game from the industrial era on.

    That said I do think they should move Battleships up one.
     
  4. Veneke

    Veneke King

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    Yes, good god yes and for god's sake implement this!

    In fact, WWI aircraft were primarily used for scouting and not bombing. Why you can't scout at all with aircraft is completely beyond me. It makes carriers little more than floating bomber laden islands rather than the new battleships of the sea.
     
  5. Wuddel

    Wuddel Warlord

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    I love Battleships. I think they are fine, since you can upgrade into them. By the time I upgrade them, the Frigates ususally have Logistics, Supply and Range promotions already. I shelled countless enemy Civs into submission with Battleships. Now with melee ships it is even better, not being dependent on ground forces as much.
     
  6. Barghaest

    Barghaest King

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    Actually, planes have an auto-recon feature. At the end of the turn all hexes in a specific radius (range of plane I believe, starts at 6) are cleared of fog of war. Parked my carrier along coasts to clear areas in border/inside mountain ranges.
     
  7. Aurelius321

    Aurelius321 Warlord

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    I think that Battleships are OK where they are. I just had a late game domination victory (King, America, Continents) and was using Battleships/Destroyers/Carriers as a main part of my attack fleet because Japan had most of their cities on the coast. If you are actually at war or regularly then the Battleship lasts for a good amount of time because your turns take so much longer (moving 20, 30, 40+ military units) than if you are going for another type of victory (built a unit, fortify it, never think about it again). Units don't seem to last as long when your not at war because your clicking through the turns faster.

    Also... I agree with Veneke about the fighters. In Civ IV they were able to do recon missions to get a view of the area (with a chance of being hit my anti-air), which is useful for spotting with bombers or trying to see where the AI's navy is. Not necessarily a clutch ability or anything, but would be nice to have the flexibility.
     
  8. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Deity

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    Battleships are not fine where they are because I have frigates along with my destroyers. Ironclads quickly obsoleted the age of sail, and it just isn't represented in this game.

    Although if you beeline, you can still get it pretty early. But I still have sail ships with my destroyers.
     
  9. Aurelius321

    Aurelius321 Warlord

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    Battleships come with Eletronics and Destoyers come with Combustion and both techs occupy the same column on the Tech Tree (2nd column of Modern Era)... So from a balance perspective they are both available to be researched at the same time. How an individual goes about their research will determine who gets what first.

    Also, it's a game... And gameplay trumps historical accuracy in my book. I'd rather have a little historical inaccuracy between when I research things than have gameplay unbalanced just to make sure that my modern era navy perfectly fits with some history channel WWII film.
     
  10. Furycrab

    Furycrab King

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    Comes back to Gameplay> History.

    It's easier to setup a good firing line/upgraded ships and rip up a coastal city than it is to use the same powered ground unit. So your ships should upgrade a little slower than your ground units.

    I think they managed a good balance. However I also think they need to somehow relook at how ground units attack cities. Once you hit renaissance, you start seeing 30-50 strength cities, with 16-24 Units. If you get cover, you don't do damage, if you get Siege, you are squishy, if you go straight upgrades you are squishy and don't do city damage, but "might" get march earlier.
     
  11. Gamewizard

    Gamewizard Emperor

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    My last game as Carthage I had battleships long before I had destroyers. A fleet of 6 battleships and 1 or 2 ironclad can absolutely rip apart the AI, map dependent of course.
     
  12. jjkrause84

    jjkrause84 King

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    When people pull out the "Gameplay > history" argument it is usually to cover up sloppy design and development. Frigates simply should not be the dominant naval vessel at times when players have aircraft, artillery and tanks on land. There are two options for fixing this incongruity, and neither would be hugely difficult (introduce a new unit, or give battleships earlier). Either option would preserve a better historical "feel" (accuracy is never possible, the best a game can do is make sure things "feel right") without upsetting gameplay balances.
     
  13. Aurelius321

    Aurelius321 Warlord

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    This is a game that is supposed to be about playing out how you would run a civilization from rocks to rockets. It's about making your own civilization, not about perfectly recreating the ones on earth. You want to ignore the water and not have any seagoing vessels until 0 AD? Great. Want to forego flight and go straight to tanks? Super! There is no historical accuracy in a game with Giant Death Robots, Alexander rolling through the fields with Modern Armor, and Ramesses the Great launching Nukes at people.
     
  14. jjkrause84

    jjkrause84 King

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    Go back and re-read my post....carefully if need be. I explicitly state that accuracy is never an achievable goal (especially in Civ). However, that doesn't mean the game cannot make efforts to 'feel' right. Having Great War infantry supported (ALWAYS...not just in rare examples) by wooden frigates simply does not 'feel right'.
     
  15. Aurelius321

    Aurelius321 Warlord

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    Great War Infantry are unlocked by Replaceable Parts, which is only 1 column before Destroyers and Battelships. In fact Replaceable Parts is a prereq for Electronics, which unlocks Battleships. Battleships are one step away from Great War Infatry.

    Despite what you say, you are looking for a high level of accuracy... Essentially it sounds like you want Great War Infantry, Destroyers, and Battleships to unlock on the same tech, just so that group of units can all be next to each other on the map and have it not assault your sense of historical accuracy. Because they are all unlocked in different techs, there are going to be times when your army doesn't perfectly line up with what is historically accurate.

    Now, if Battleships were unlocked in Atomic Era or something I could see your point. But all of the units that you're looking for are unlocked in the same era.
     
  16. jjkrause84

    jjkrause84 King

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    Unlocking one column further can mean a great difference in time, especially with the tendency to go for strong infantry units as soon as possible.

    Basically, in the game (as played by humans) battleships tend to come far later than Great War Infs. They should be in the same column, I think, but just on a different chain. At no point did I say it should all happen on the same tech....
     
  17. Kurtbob

    Kurtbob Prince

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    I'm with jjkrause84. As he said, it just dosen't feel right to have frigates supporting destroyers.

    The tech tree is odd. You can produce a new melee naval unit (Ironclad) two columns after Navigation, yet you have to wait four columns to get a new ranged naval unit (Battleship).

    I don't see a problem with moving the Battleship back to Replaceable Parts (no new unit needed). In terms of gameplay it makes more sense having the battleship appear three columns after Navigation. Cannons upgrade to Artiller (two columns), riflemen to great war infanty to wwii infantry (four columns), and Cavalry to Landships (three columns) in the four columns it takes to upgrade your frigates. Why should your navy stay so weak for so long while your ground forces change every two columns or so? Historically it also makes more sense for Battleships to come into play at the same time as subs, railroad, and early flight than coming into play with destroyers, carriers, and plastics. How can you go wrong?

    Personally, I think another coal powered unit can easily be squeezed into the industrial/modern era to suppliment the Ironclad (both Steam Power and Replaceable Parts seem like good places for said unit). Considering the game already has units (Longswordsman, Great War Infantry, Landships) that obsolete after advancing one column on the tech tree, I think the game should have a pre-battleship ranged unit to get the 'feeling' right again.
     
  18. Barghaest

    Barghaest King

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    A Cruiser would work... armored cruisers pre-date dreadnaughts and were between destroyer and battleship in size.

    The Royal Navy had a battlecruiser in 1907.... fits perfectly with Great War Infantry
     
  19. jjkrause84

    jjkrause84 King

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    True, but the dreadnaught would be more 'fun', I think. It would would fit in perfectly with great war infs. and landships, etc.

    Fear the Lord, and dread naught!

    ;)
     
  20. Winston

    Winston Warlord

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    If they moved battleships to replaceable parts they should also make destroyers earlier too. I'd like to see the sail ships earlier too.

    It would be nice if they have WW1 specific ships but I wonder how much use they'll see before they're obsoleted.

    I agree with other posters that it's daft and immersion breaking to see wooden warships when everything else is modernised
     

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