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Battleships overpowered?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by engapol, Sep 12, 2015.

  1. reddishrecue

    reddishrecue Deity

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    Armor and anti armor came during modern day technologies. Mobile units got armored promotions and then there were anti armor units that also countered the armored units as a way for civilizations to defend themselves. The battleship in its own way does seem armored but it isn't and it used to be the strongest unit in civilization in earlier versions of it.
     
  2. TinyLittleBirdy

    TinyLittleBirdy Warlord

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    The whole upgrading system doesn't make much sense for most naval units. Frigate and Battleships are so different that "upgrading" would entail building an entirely new ship. For some units such as Musketmen to Riflemen, upgrading makes sense since you're just giving them new weapons, but overall, I feel like the whole upgrading system is broken.
     
  3. reddishrecue

    reddishrecue Deity

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    Throughout the naval eras, only melee and ranged ship upgrade but once you get to modern eras and start getting submarine, carriers and other specialized ships then thats where the destroyer and battleship can upgrade no more and the other new ships that didnt exist in the primitive eras need to be built from scratch so make sure you have plenty of production if you want the other ships.
     
  4. TinyLittleBirdy

    TinyLittleBirdy Warlord

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    That doesn't make the upgrades make any sense. The whole melee tree makes absolutely no sense at all. Neither does a Frigate upgrading to a Battleship. Or a Submarine upgrading to a Nuclear Submarine.

    I think we need more naval units so we don't end up with huge gaps between ships. Or just make all ships with cannons ranged units. And a Nuclear/Modern Aircraft Carrier unit with Interception, increased movement, carrying capacity, and combat strength.
     
  5. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    What? A small pack can sit out of range and bring down even a late city quick.

    Why even bother with the sub? Destroyer can provide line of sight until the turn it takes the city.

    Fair point, but it all an abstraction anyway. The game mechanics all work reasonably well together. If the idea of an immortal leader does not break the immersion for you, I don't know why you would get hung up on the combat system.
     
  6. engapol

    engapol Chieftain

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    Also doesn't help that the AI often spends several turns just milling around your city doing absolutely nothing while your ranged units wear them down.
     
  7. sixty4half

    sixty4half Prince

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    AI is so inept at Naval warfare.

    I'm England with Battleships and Zulu and Inca have Frigates, both of them on the 2nd continent. I DoW Shaka to raze a few costals to slightly cripple him before moving on to Info Era. 1 Turn into war, Pachacuti DoW Zulus. As I raze OMG I LUV U I move to the 2nd costal. Patch has it surrounded by Frigates with 1 Privateer at the back of his navy. I can't even get in close enough to ping it with Battleships.

    I figure, okay, Patch has this, I'll move on to the 3rd costal (it was Polynesia's 3rd city and I'd already liberated Honolulu and another city from Shaka earlier, keeping him busy by an eternal war with cities he had already conquered was part of the plan).

    So I go liberate the 3rd city at which point Shaka sues for peace with all his gold and excess Lux's. I swing back by on my way home to heal and he's down to 2 frigates, no Privateer in sight, and the costal city is still at half health. WTF was he doing for 7 turns? IDK

    Shaka would send 1 Frigate at a time to get PWNd. Had this been a land war, he would have sent dozens of riflemen backed with artillery, but even a AI as good at war as Shaka is, he still fails at naval. Patch couldn't take a single city with 8 Frigates and 1 Privateer!!! I think those two examples highlight exactly how inept AI is at naval, not how OP the Battleship is. Problem is that with Battleship being end game naval unit seems OP because AI is so inept.
     
  8. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    Well, this is a case where clearly (imo.) gameplay trumps realism. It might not make sense from a realism pov., but having the units upgrade is good for gameplay, because it makes you keep your old units with all their promotions which is more fun. It's been well establish during the vanilla-version of the game that modern units that don't fit into an upgrade path almost always gets neglected (for instance Lancer got zero playtime before it got added to the Pikeman line - however ungainly that solution was, and a lot of bad things can be said about that). In fact, the fact that Battleships don't upgrade into Missile Cruisers is another flaw in the system, although it's less important because most games are decided before missile cruisers get any serious gametime.
     
  9. shaglio

    shaglio The Prince of Dorkness

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    Likewise, the only time I ever use Marines is when I get them gifted to me from a CS. Once they made a split between Melee and Ranged ships, there was no need to use Marines to attack a 1 tile island city. Without that need, what else are they good for?
     
  10. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    In a pinch if you do not have a coastal spot, but you really need want to capture a one-tile ocean city. Pretty rare, I must confess, but it is good to have the option.

    I would love the option to split, say GWI, into Marines, AA, or Infantry. Infantry should IMHO have the option to upgrade to SAM or XCOM. It really is much less fun that those units have to be built from scratch.

    OTOH battleships that upgraded to missile cruisers would just be so OP.
     
  11. sixty4half

    sixty4half Prince

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    I always thought Marines were for people bee-lining to Internet or Globalization so that those individuals would at the least have a Modern Era unit. It's probably the weakest of the Modern Era units, but it's better than Great War Infantry. The downside is that you have to hard build them, but that's what you get for bee-lining to your victory condition, I guess.
     
  12. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    On Marines, they were useful in Vanilla, when every naval ship was ranged and in addition only units with the amphibious promotion could attack from sea at all.

    Yes, the unit was nerfed to oblivion by G&K introduction of melee ships.
     
  13. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Emperor

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    Marines are still useful for sending unescorted to another continent to make a beachhead, or with just a small naval escort that you use to protect your artillery, landships, and AA guns.

    Or you need to build an amphibious melee unit with siege or march or cover II for taking a strong city that you must attack across a river (you don't have to use up a promotion to get amphib)

    Battleships are one of my favorite units in the whole game because they can pulverize a coastal or near-coastal city w/o ever pausing to heal, and clear the coast as the enemy tries to recapture the city so you can continue your invasion.
     
  14. engapol

    engapol Chieftain

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    I don't think Battleships should be upgradeable to missile cruisers, they weren't really a predecessor. IRL battleships often co-existed with missile carrying destroyers and cruisers well into the post-war period and late 20th century. And their unique abilities in-game usually persuade me to keep building them alongside newer ships.
     
  15. reddishrecue

    reddishrecue Deity

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    Those melee ships used to be Op since their boarding capabilities often caught cities by surprise. With all the new patches and expansions, however, theyre not that Op anymore.
     
  16. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    Stacking Marines with Battleships and destroyers also gives the option of taking down a city faster and/or not having to wait on Battleships to wear the city down to 0 health.

    Typically your destroyer is used like a horseman, zipping in to cap the city after the archers have worn away the defenses. Marines let you beat on a coastal city like you might if you have a surplus of veteran melee units in the early eras. So I think Marines are useful enough.

    I can be slow, so it took me two or three games to figure how I was losing cities to ships when I was so successfully killing off any and all embarked units...
     
  17. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    But that is only true because these units are not balanced. It would be no more, and no less, overpowered than Galleasses upgrading into Frigates and Frigates upgrading into Battleships.
     
  18. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Emperor

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    So can embarked marines take a hit from the city defense without dying? I know they are pretty strong (got hit by two bombers and still survived, barely)
     
  19. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    Technically even the lowly embarked scout in the same hex as one your naval units as a shield can do that.

    But later on, embarked units get 3 MP and so they can wait outside of city bombardment range for battleships to knock the defenses down low enough. But the Destroyer can be even further out.

    Also, beachheads are really easy against the AI without Marines. Embarked Tanks behind the lines that don't come ashore until your Battleships bombard the city far enough down for your Destroyers to move in and take it.
    One or Two Battleships will be sufficient to hold the area until they do even if the landing force is a few turns away if no one has bombers yet. And if bombers were widely available, they'd relocate into the city you just captured the next turn anyway since in that case you'd have been using them to bomb the city.
     
  20. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Emperor

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    I still like marines, even tho' I don't build very many. You can send one to go take care of that barbarian camp way over there across the ocean, and he can do it w/o a DD or BB escort. I just wondered how strong they were on defense against cities compared to for instance, destroyers or ironclads.
     

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