Bazaars, Camels and Oil

No worries, we're all playing with variable degrees of lack of experience - with CAs though, I think I lack less xp than most. One of my pet civs while doing the endless Total Dominations on Continents. Also. I've noticed that even with detailed notes it's much harder to get going with only 10 turn stints than playing solo. A good example of this is that

*** Ulundi *** is still a puppet.

It was available for annexation at least my whole stint and I still missed it.

The Landing Spot dilemma...

...or the place from where to start a war. The journey there could be shorter and whatnot but the basics are the same. Still, let's use the current game as an example.

Time to travel. To west a CA can land in 14 turns - to east it takes 18.

The path. No obstacles, just sea to west while to the east we have Siam & Indonesian city/cities in the path which will (probably) trigger The Question even with OB which would leave only Assyria as a target option since we don't want to DoW Monte at this point.

The actual landing. We need space, prerably with roads especially since we didn't bring any Workers or a Settler. Monte has both while the wasteland by Assur has neither. Landing in Monte's lands will go unnoticed while a quarter of our troops in that wasteland will trigger Ashur leaving most of our units vulnerable in the water. This is fine since we have a massive navy as protection...oh, wait...

The attack. We need our first city cap fast hence is should be in open terrain and on the smaller side for quick annex. The city itself can be crappy, everything else is a bonus. From La Venta's side we have several tiles, even 3rd ring, where we can shoot from, room to manoeuvre & retreat, place to heal and no reasonable chance to get caught in crossfire.
In the wasteland spot we'd be surrounded by 3 hostile cities and the sea, very little room to move, standing on marsh and shooting blocked by forests and forest hills.

Starting from another AIs's lands is the best option especially if the AIs don't have OB with each other and a border sharing CS is an excellent side attraction. In our case at first glimpse I'd have preferred coming from Jerusalem/Monte general area but it's next to impossible to go there from where we were in the sea.
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I feel like I've been getting the most fun sets of turns this game.

- Faith-bought a GG in Umgung for Mogadishu's quest. Moved spy out to Tenochtitlan
- Disembarking near La Venta
- Renew some deals and max out the 50gpt cap again
- Will keep Ulundi and Nobamba puppets until I burn the Writers at the end of WF

Interim: Monte attacks Ashur. Didn't even have to ask him.

- Shaka has top army. We have the reckless expander penalty with him, Monte and Dido. Triple-DoW incoming? I start preparing just in case.

- New SP: Militarism, up to 20 happiness.
- Ask around if anyone wants to DoW Ashur, all decline
- GMu spawns, no place for a great work yet
- DoWed Ashur

- Ashur doesn't acknowledge our existence. Well, I'll just keep shooting Nimrud then
- Burned both GWs. Took Clausewitz Legacy

- Monte is plotting against us but he also adopts Autocracy. Tech steal in 12 turns
- Downvoted Cocoa ban
- World's Fair ends
- Annexed Ulundi and Nobamba. Courthouses in 2 turns in both.
- Captured Nimrud, sold it to Monte for Silk. Monte's burning the city.

Interim: Yep, there it is. Dido and Shaka declare a "surprise" war. We lose most of our trade routes and Samarkand's 3 happiness

- Planted defensive Citadel near Nobamba and fortified a double-cover GWI (Adam!) on it. Let's see how Shaka deals with that
- Proposed World Religion Shinto because why not
- Finished Replaceable parts, started Flight
- New spy to Mecca to level up

- Lost track of how many Riflemen I killed this turn. 8?

- Secularism. All wars going well

- DoF with Aztecs

- Popped the remaining GA. Next Artist in 13 turns, current Golden Age ends in 13 turns.

20210615160758_1.jpg 20210615160809_1.jpg 20210615160832_1.jpg


- We're 1st in all demos
- I'm stagnating all of our cities because I don't see much reason to grow them anymore
- GE in Mecca soon if we keep working the engineer slots. Rush Prora?
- Tech steals from Assyria and the Aztecs coming up. I believe Assyria has Fertilizer and Military Science, while the Aztecs only have Military Science. Stealing both would unlock Dynamite
- We should improve at least some of our CS allies' Oil with the 200g gifts


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Wars on both continents! I'm surprised Shaka had a stronger army than Monte even after we took some of his cities. Carthage is in the yelllow, but I guess Riflemen and Cavalry aren't getting by GWI; how did we get so many GWI, heck how did we get the tech for them so fast. We'll be in a state of war for the rest of the game so that's good.
I should have had more faith in the CA!
  • T230 Spy fails to stop someone stealing Biology from Mecca; Move him from to Sukhothai as diplomat to bribe for vote; Buy OB from Ramkhamhaeng so Caravel can get through; Mecca building Cargo Ship for quest we do not need; kill a bunch of boats in the ocean S of Mecca; capture and Puppet Nineveh as it has Sistine Chapel (which we cannot Theme); improve Quebec City Oil; upgrade Rifles near Samarkand
  • T231 Siam adopts Freedom; decline RA with Monty; fund Pachacuti so he can afford an RA with us; Give Cahokia and Monaco gold each for their quests; Flight is unlocked; Military Science and Fertilizer are only two turns for us, but probably they are the only techs we can steal, so start researching Radio; kill the rest of Dido’s fleet S of Mecca; start on Prora in Mecca
  • T231 loose a boat near Dur-Sharrukin and a Cannon near Ondini, sloppy; steal Fertilizer from Assur; move veteran spy to Monaco
  • T232 loose another Privateer, blah; lol, Lake Victoria spot now available; Samarkand has a navy I was not expecting; capture and puppet Ondini; spawn a GAd; capture a couple Ironclads near Assur
  • T233 loose a couple Cannons; Ashurbanipal gives up Dar-Tukulti-Ninurta (20 pop, with Machu Pichu) for peace, but Monty is razing it and will not sell it to us
  • T234 more killing; Assur half down; road between Shanghai, Beijing, and Guangzhou is now nice and straight, since that is absolutely the most important thing and best use of workers
  • T235 Ramkhamhaeng denounces us; GE born which I will use for Broadway since we can theme it; Dido sending units to die towards Beijing; bribe Ramkhamhaeng to waste his vote
  • T236 steal Military Science and send diplomat to Tenochtitlan; start researching Dynamite
  • T237 Miss the hostile boats near Byblos, as I am playing too fast; Broadway finishes, and I theme it; capture and puppet Assur; make (white) peace w/ Ashurbanipal since he only has the one city left
  • T238 give Jerusalem 250 gold since they have the quest; just lining up CA, since I am not sure who is next on our dance card
  • T239 Prora finishes; happy goes from +7 to +19, take Gunboat Diplomacy
  • T240 interstitial: do not forgive Monty for bullying Zanzibar; renew DOF with Inca; Dynamite unlocks
@raider980 the screen shot shows the CA lined up, I presume Indonesia is next, but that is up to you! In a couple turns, please bribe Monty to vote for Shinto as World Religion. There should be time to move the diplomat to Assyria, and make a similar bribe.



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Ok, I can play tonight. Questions, comments:
  • Bribing to vote for Shinto. I never do this because it seems like they either flat out refuse or ask way too high a price. Is there a trick to bribing them? Is Ashur really going to vote for our religion after we just nearly wiped out his entire civilization? What prices is too high? Will we definitely lose without bribing both of them?
  • I would rather attack Ram but the geography dictates we attack Gajah. We can always take Ram's coastal capital easily with our navy.
  • Its going to take quite a lot of influence to get Zanzibar; 1000g plus something else, I supposed I'll attempt a coup.
  • Is Ram at war with someone, or what's he doing with all those units in the Bay of Sharrukn? Any chance he'll attack us?
My opinion:

- For WR: Shinto to pass I don't think we even need to bribe anyone. We have 15 votes, Shaka and Pacha have another 4 and they follow our religion so they will likely vote for it. Others have 18 votes in total. I guess you can check what Monte wants for his vote since the diplomat is almost there anyway, but I wouldn't spend too much
- If Ram attacks that's fine, he can't do anything to us
- Annex Nineveh next turn and faith-purchase a Great General to buff up the Camels. Pillage all the tiles where Nimrud used to be and attack Indonesia
- Leave just enough forces to fend off Shaka on the home continent. Upgrade Cannons and send them to Siam along with some GWIs and ships. Clear the way with the ships we have by Dur-Sharrukin
- Build Military Academies and spam planes with Air Repair. Capture Cusco
- Tech Electronics and get some Carriers and Battleships
- Deal with the Aztecs
Bribing to vote for Shinto. I never do this because it seems like they either flat out refuse or ask way too high a price. Is there a trick to bribing them?
Yes, there is a trick. Instead of paying them to vote for your resolution, you look at the cost for the other one, both for and against. The other resolution you presumably don’t care much about. The point is to bribe them into wasting most of their votes (on something that makes no difference).
Is Ashur really going to vote for our religion after we just nearly wiped out his entire civilization?
No. But it might not cost too much to have him waste his vote.
What prices is too high?
I do not usually need to spend anything more than spare luxes and resources. Maybe single digit gpt. Sometimes the cost for the vote I want is only a little more expansive than the vote I don’t care about.
Will we definitely lose without bribing both of them?
Nope. I just like to be sure. Pacha will vote for our WR and Shaka probably will. Dido might even, since we have now converted almost all her cities. As @vadalaz wrote, no need to spend too much.

If we win WR, next vote we should be able to get WI, if this game goes that long.
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The World is on fire, lovely. I saw the Shaka's units and assumed we'll get DoWed eventually but I thought we'll make it to Modern before that hence I was only building units in 2 expos while the rest were focusing on Factories - as I said I'm still in Immortal mode but a double DoW is a refreshing surprise. Had I had the money I would've given cash to Samarkand but I thought allying Mogadishu more important while saving for La Venta.

The CAs are awesome, my favourite unit in the game and I'm in the minority here but I think it's superior to Keshik due to prolonged usefulness.

I'd go for Ganjaman next. Take Surabaya & Jakarta, DoW Monte as he'll require some unit harvesting before reaching Tenochtitlan. The pathway includes liberation of Grand River. Siam shouldn't have much of an opposition for us taking Sukhotai apart from GW if we'll go by land.

Capping the burning KTN could be useful with MP as a bonus but tricky.


My first move, though, would be moving the Great Works from Ashur to somewhere else. A bit late for Nineveh for just one turn besides there doesn't seem to be room for that.


After taking a closer look at the territory I think that we really should take KTN before it burns down and approach Tenoch through Makassar rather than Onondaga-Tlatelolco -way. We can pass Gr River or cap & liberate it for fun but we don't need it as capping both Onondaga & Tlatelolco from south is tricky by CAs.
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Even end-game, I don’t like breaking a DoF to DOW, but why/when did that happen with Monty?

I agree that CA are better than Keshik — because they do not have the city attack penalty.
I didn't even notice until you pointed that out that we've indeed DoF with Monte - 37 turns left. Vada even makes a note of that on T228. I hate everyone and have no friends so apparently I couldn't comprehend the concept and/or mentally ignored that part.
Well, breaking DoFs generally isn't my thing either but in fairnes I have to say that's usually because others start disliking well before I can have practical use of renegotiating friendships. In short, I'm fine with breaking DoF at this point. That should give some extra spice to later turns if nothing else and we aren't gonna win any popularity contests among the major civs either.


The more I look at the current situation the more intrigued I get by the idea of capping KTN before Jakarta especially if we can get Monte to co-DoW Ganjaman. Another factor is number of Indonesian land units. Getting 3 CAs in the land of Jerusalem/our coal, preferably 3, though 2 may be enough, Infantry ready on the road and an Artie and/GWB to help from the south should be enough to cap & secure the city in 3 turns. Meanwhile Monte & Ganjaman are free knock out their units for our benefit. We don't have to take Jakarta from Ganjaman, from Monte would be even better. To do this the should also be a seppuku-ready Lancer in Monaco before DoWing Monte. Just a thought...
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I only got through half the turns, they're taking a long time each now. I won't be DoW'ing Monte my session. I've got my hands full with Gajah's troops. And Shaka and Dido are bringing it too. Dido's got Carthage in the yellow, needed to move some GWI up there. Plus their CS fight better than they do, I almost lost our GAd, one of the CS used a pincer movement on our ships, ouch.
Whew, I only played 8 turns, my computer started chugging. I can't zoom the map out anymore so I have to play way too far zoomed in. I even unbloated the file, it helped a some but it was still dragging. Just as well, I was messing up.

I started to move into position to swim to Siam but both Dido and Shaka started attacking in force so I had to change plans. Guess it was a good thing because the seas are a dangerous place, lots of naval warfare out there.

T240 1650AD. Coup in Zanzibar. Move Camels into position on the Indonesian front.

T241. 1655AD. GW and GA born. WLtKD in Medina. Geneva lost its Pearls.

Interim. Pacha worries about his people wearing our blue jeans.

T242. 1660AD. Denounce and DoW Indonesia. Can a friendly Citadel damage our units? I swear that's what just happened. Dido and Shaka start attacking with many units in a coordinated effort.

T243. Uh oh, Carthage is in the yellow. Better move some GWI up there. A combined Carthaginian and Kievian navy attack our GA led fleet. We might lose a GA.

Interim. Lost a Privateer.

T244. The GA is safe, our navy has fought off the enemy. Camels in Indonesia shooting a wave of what must be well promoted veteran riflemen from the war with Monte, they're taking a lot of hits to kill.

T245. Darn, our Privateers haven't captured a single ship out of like 8 kills. The Indonesian war is not going as well as hoped. Gajah has many troops. Invite Monte to join in but he declines.

Spoiler Surrounded! :

T247. Our Frigate dies in a glorious battle outnumbered 6 to 1. Our Inquisitor drowns after being attacked by an enemy Caravel. Bribed Monte to vote for Shinto.

  • I messed up our navy. I was planning on a quick hit and run to get some xp and then move the Frigates to harbor to upgrade. But our inexperienced Admiral got caught with his pants down by seemingly veteran naval commanders from three different navies. The western fleet is high tailing it to Carthage to upgrade to Battleships, then we'll teach them. Our eastern fleet is heading toward Zurich (or is it Zanzibar? - the one near Babanango.
  • Our troops are clearing out Zulu Riflemen near Bulawayo. Spotted the first Zulu Artillery and killed it.
  • As mentioned above the Indonesian war is not going as well as hoped. Maybe Gajah is finally running out of troops.
  • Some workers are building a road to Kabul for a quest.
  • Monte is bringing in quite a lot of troops near Saguntum, maybe planning an attack on Dido (or us lol).
  • Edit. Oh, I also opened Commerce. Figured we didn't need any more Autocracy and we could use some money to buy units. The half cost roads policy next will save us a ton.

Spoiler Indonesian Front :
Indonesian Front.jpg

Spoiler Zulu Front :
Zulu Front.jpg

Spoiler Off the coast of Carthaginian territory :
Carthaginian naval front.jpg


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Few turns and I stopped to have a pow-wow about what to propose next? The vote will be in 20 turns.

* Cult Heritage + Monte / - Dido, Shaka, Pacha, Ashur
* Historical LM + Monte / - Pacha, Ashur
* the obvious IG & ideology options

Nothing much to report so far


- moved GWs from Assur
- lost a CA to Surabaya
- Wine & Incense to Pacha


- captured Zulu Caravel
- Wine & Cotton to Monte
- TR Assur-Byblos for q
- captured Indonesian Frigate
- capped Surabaya


- Kabul road ready
- Zurich & Geneva got their TR quests


- Shinto passes
- Heroic Epic Mecca

Also killed a bunch of units every turn, pillaging Carthagian lands, pillaged several TRs, placed units on Monte's & Rammy's oil, ships blocking potential Zulu, Indonesian & Carthagian sea TRs though Kwadukuza is still a free port, upgraded few Frigates to Battleships and restructuring road network near Ulundi.

I'll take Jakarta & Panormus next turn. Shanghai is building Oxford just to make it a one turn finish at some point, Nanjing is building BB for lack of better things to do - if weäll get it fine and if not I'll gladly take the cash and no one else seems to have more than opener of Commerce anyway.
Monte is prolly marching to protect Xochicalco & attack Dido or Shaka from there at some point. Dido has what's left of her navy around Samarkand heading for its death though she thinks it's going for Mecca. Shaka upgraded to Arties which will not make any difference. Capping Bulawayo and using that to do that road q for Cahokia is on the to-do list with low prio.
For tech it's going to be RR & Ballistics after Plastics I assume?

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International Games or World Ideology make the most sense to me, but I'm fine with any proposal, and I think we'll win before the vote anyway. For tech I'd either hard-research Atomic Theory next or just Oxford it, whichever gets it faster, and nuke everyone. But again, any tech path is fine by me, we already have all we need to win anyway.
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As it currently stands AT is 10 turns away so Oxford can be used to finish Nuclear Fi and then it's just hoping for Uranium. I was thinking of less opportunistic route of Oxing Radar but with Uranium available Nukes should be a couple of turns faster. Currently we have 2 GGs on starting continent, one on the other & enough faith to buy the 2,5k one next. Progrees is 1.1k/1.8k so we should get one more to spawn naturally in time, too. I'm not planning any peace deals anyway.

The main issue here is that none of the decisions at this point really matters and I was just wondering whether we had any alterior motives than mopping this one up and start planning the next game :)
Ah right, I always forget that it's Nuclear Fission that unlocks nukes, not Atomic Theory. But you're right that none of this matters anyway. Might as well just sell all science buildings at this point. And most of other buildings too, for that matter...

And yeah, my mind's on the next game already. So far we've played a Tradition culture game, Liberty diplo and now Honor domination. Piety science next?
Wow, how'd you cap Surabaya in two turns? And Jakarta next turn! Ram will be easy to take, a couple battleships and a melee ship. Shaka won't be a problem. Monte may take awhile, Camels aren't going to be viable to take him on right? Or am I still underestimating Camels?

For the next game I was thinking we might need to tighten our rules a bit to be closer to the Rome game. Perhaps it was just the OP Camels (and DF plus us successfully getting Petra) but this one seemed rather easy. Going Piety might make it hard enough though. Edit. Piety with Theodora on the Mediterranean TSL map might be fun.
It's a matter of getting 2 shots from every CA every turn while using other units' ZoC to block effective defense. Even when a single shot does single digit dmg multiply that by 18 and these cities are going down in 2 turns leaving few pot shots for units on every turn The harder part than capping is to position oneself not to allow recapping the next turn. That's why it's usually better to cap a city at the start of rotation rather than in the end. Like always captured civilian units are extremely useful as one-turn-scouts.

I think the CAs will be demoted to supporting role for the last phase. I fear that Monte will have too many double cover melee units to plow through in reasonable time hence we're preparing for nukes and GWBs as a backup plan.

Very violent Liberty-Piety culture game without building wonders with GW slots or Archaeologists would be my choice :)


I'll propose IG to take away some hammers from others in the last few turns and finish my part after the Germany-Portugal game.
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I overdid my turn a bit but I think we'll win anyway. I also stopped keeping notes it seems but nothing much happened after T255


- took Jakarta
- took Panormus & gifted it to Pacha
- Plastics -> Atomic T
- GA ends
- Ram DoWs Shaka


- Monte has planes I just don't know where the oil comes from
- Dynamite stolen
- Ram Modern

CAs are getting their double cover down south, 2 Carriers are bringing GWBs to the future playground, some cities are making money, Nineveh is ready to buy units in one turn, Assur is still a puppet, OB from Monte just ran out so we don't have units preventing him constructing Oil Wells, Rammy is sieging Hanoi and I've been shooting its civilians for xp, I found a deep sea diver GG in the middle of the ocean where I forgot him so the 2nd continent will have 2 GGs even without buying in few turns, starting continent has now 3.
Dido's cities are for xp harvesting and TR pillaging, Bulawayo will fall next turns and Cusco can be capped with ease, road to Cahokia a turn short. Rammy still has tons of Dumbos and plentiful of Privateers but nothing advanced. Monte didn't have much units down by Jakarta's side.
Spies would be more useful somewhere else.

I've been deleting surplus Workers but I won't take part in selling buildings in cities unless I'm razing it. This is a RP part from me as a builder - I don't take my civs from edge of space back to stone age. Nor do I sell/gift cities for easier GM tours. I don't have a problem others doing that so feel free.


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