BE vs SMAC discussion

[lilgamefreek]

I think one of the things that take me out of BE is the fact that if you've seen one section of terrain, you've pretty much seen the whole planet. One of the cool things about SMAC was discovering landmarks, many of which prompted their own interludes such as the Manifold Nexus or the Unity Crash Site. There are zero landmarks in BE and that's really disappointing given the opportunities they've had.

Imagine stumbling on some black ruins or weird overgrowth that don't exist anywhere else on the planet, and suddenly it triggers an event where powerful hostile alien units spring up from their previously dormant state and start going on a rampage. These planets just don't inspire awe in the least and so that really seems like a missed opportunity.

Overall, it was just neat to have random events every now and then to shake things up, such as a fungal bloom that causes mindworms to pop out and start attacking from within your borders (similar to how unhappiness could cause barbarians to appear in Civ 5). Or communications going down so you couldn't talk with the other factions for X turns. Or land masses rising out of the oceans because of a freak volcano. These all made the world seem alive and dynamic.

Also, automated formers work just fine in SMAC... whereas in BE, they're broken to the point of being unusable.

I for one am a little surprised they dropped Natural Wonders. It could've been a good opportunity to add some variety to the map. Hopefully, if they plan to really differentiate biomes gameplay wise in Rising Tide, Firaxis will consider bringing biome specific natural wonders to the game.

 

[Callonia]

I need to stop looking at this thread because SMAC is far more interesting and it makes me regret even harder for dropping 50$ on BE.

 

[Algeroth]

The bugs can't be that threatening because an entire Virtue tree is dedicated to hunting them down Starship Trooper style. Even farming them. If you amped up the bugs, you'd need to amp up that Virtue tree as well, and it throws the Virtue balance into question.

I do not think CivBE's portrayal of alien life as conquerable is a design error. The Xenodome, in fact, is a Wonder aimed at preserving and displaying local life in its natural habitat - a clear indication that humanity eventually gains near-total mastery of the alien ecosystem. The design reflects the planned narrative. It is a more logical and thought-out progression that SMAC's "suddenly we contact Planet and we become one!" which makes about as much sense as cave people suddenly gaining insight into how to make a bicycle.

Gaining understanding and more and more mastery over local ecosystems is what eventually leads to communion with Planet, not an unexplained sudden super-thing.

I thought that all the praising SAMC how "artistic" or "masterful" it was was the worst part of this thread, but this comment is wrong in so many ways.

First, there is no "Virtue tree dedicated to hunting them down Starship Trooper style". Might has two virtues giving bonuses for killing aliens. Two virtues out of fifteen. That's entire 13 % dedication. That is like talking about someone who has a wife and six mistresses as "dedicated husband" - Even worse due to rounding.

And the pseudoargument with the precarious balance of Virtues thrown into question is just that - a pseudoargument suggesting that Virtues atm are balanced and any change in the game would set them into some disequilibrium that would be painstakingly hard to balance.

But what is borderline outraging lie is the rest of your post. Gaining understanding and more and more mastery over local ecosystems is indeed what eventually leads to communion with Planet, and that what is SMAC all about. The flavor text are from the beginning talking about studying the ecology of the planet, the unease resulting from the realization that ecosystem of the Planet looks managed, the research into psi phenomena, first contact with the planetmind, research into the planet growth cycle and then the "Communion" as an effort to break this cycle. No unexplained sudden super-thing at all.

In fact, it is the presentation of this story that outclasses BE by leagues. In SMAC, there is some story told over all the tech quotes, building flavour texts and tech description. But it always in background, never going into needless details that would only bore and distract. Heck, if something is "masterful" in SMAC it is its ability to tell a narrative without telling some particular story with a set of cross-referencing texts. SMAC gave me an appreciation for all the postmodernist stuff that I've begun to read some years after.

In fact is is the importance given to specific stories and needless details that is killing the immersion in BE, imo. There are many stories about some specific battles where Wonder proved its worth or by technical descriptions how it could work. Yeah, in SMAC there were two or three quotes dedicated to some war between Sparta and the Gainas. But they were brief and illustrated the Project/tech/building sufficiently. In BE I can read about the one battle Markov Eclipse was used (Great inspiration for a wonder, through. Together with the deep thought my favorite) which could be ditched altogether, it only confuses me when I want to read what the heck did I just build.

What I really miss in the flavor is feeling how they are on a new planet and represent maybe the last what is left of humanity. SMAC used some of its flavor to describe the difficulties of establishing industrial and logistic chains in similar scope that existed in Earth. In BE I don't have a feeling that they managed to land on some distant planet at all.

And it is not because we "don't get it". I think that we (or at least I) do get the visions of technological marvel that the authors of BE wanted to show us. I am just not interested. The technologies described are not that original, i read similar concepts before, and they are just that - technologies. Somebody in this thread already wrote that SMAC is talking about people, people on alien planet or the impact of future technologies on people. And that is what i am in good sci-fi interested in - people, not technologies, because i am (still) human.

 

[GenyaArikado]

I hate so much how you cant pull any "canon" story from BE. From the scraps that SMAC quotes you could form one but on BE? The only thing i'd be sure is that Kavitha and Elodie probably are harmony people.

 

[Galgus]

I hate so much how you cant pull any "canon" story from BE. From the scraps that SMAC quotes you could form one but on BE? The only thing i'd be sure is that Kavitha and Elodie probably are harmony people.

I prefer it that way personally, it leaves us to make out own story.

I'd actually argue that all the leaders could go different ways, though Kavitha would be a good Harmony fit.

I'm a Purity fan myself, and I find Elodie distasteful with her embrace of censorship, but I could actually see her favoring Purity with her focus on the Canon.
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So far as SMAC goes, I see its transcendence as a dangerous abomination - something to be stopped for the good of mankind.

And its kind of the central everything-leads-up-to-this theme of the game.

I like the feeling that our colonies can shape their own destiny and that of mankind.

In the end though I'm biased against SMAC's dystopian theme and towards BE's optimistic outlook.

 

[poom3619]

I agree with how we should make our own story, but it doesn't mean they should give topic and idea to you and left you to connect the dot with little lead.

Look! I'm imagining I am playing a really fun space game, it's really great and I still got my money intact.

 

[AriochIV]

I think there's a happy medium somewhere. I think it's possible to have leaders with character and predilections who are still flexible. It's possible (and desirable, in my opinion) to have a Napoleon or Genghis Khan who has a preferred style of play but will modify it if the circumstances permit.

 

[Galgus]

I agree, the neither extremes of blank slate or predestined story feels satisfying.

I'd prefer leader personalities and faction culture to be open to develop in different ways while still having their own unique implications.

I'd think purity Elodie would be substantially different in philosophy and culture than, say, purity Bolivar.

One of the most endearing aspects of Civ games is watching a world emerge as you play, with its own unique history and struggles.

 

[GenyaArikado]

I prefer it that way personally, it leaves us to make out own story.

I'd actually argue that all the leaders could go different ways, though Kavitha would be a good Harmony fit.

I'm a Purity fan myself, and I find Elodie distasteful with her embrace of censorship, but I could actually see her favoring Purity with her focus on the Canon.
__________________

So far as SMAC goes, I see its transcendence as a dangerous abomination - something to be stopped for the good of mankind.

And its kind of the central everything-leads-up-to-this theme of the game.

I like the feeling that our colonies can shape their own destiny and that of mankind.

In the end though I'm biased against SMAC's dystopian theme and towards BE's optimistic outlook.

That's stupid. Hinting a proper story through quotes detracts nothing from the "I want to make my own story" kind of gameplay and makes the "I wanna play THEIR story" possible. As it is, the sponsors may have all landed in different planets since none of their quotes even acknowledge the other.

I get them wanting to make the game "Make your own adventure". But they overdid it.

My comments about Elodie and Kavitha have to do more with their GP and quotes (FI seems to have made the Bytegeist and the Drone Sphere on top of that). Yes, the leaders were designed be able to go Harmony, Purity or Supremacy naturally. Not having a canon affinity for them its wrong. Correct it at once.

 

[Galgus]

That's stupid. Hinting a proper story through quotes detracts nothing from the "I want to make my own story" kind of gameplay and makes the "I wanna play THEIR story" possible. As it is, the sponsors may have all landed in different planets since none of their quotes even acknowledge the other.

I get them wanting to make the game "Make your own adventure". But they overdid it.

My comments about Elodie and Kavitha have to do more with their GP and quotes (FI seems to have made the Bytegeist and the Drone Sphere on top of that). Yes, the leaders were designed be able to go Harmony, Purity or Supremacy naturally. Not having a canon affinity for them its wrong. Correct it at once.

When there is a cannon story by quotes, it cheapens the value of the playthrough's story.

Fitting the theme of a new beginning, I prefer a broad range of canonical possibilities.

 

[GenyaArikado]

well go away then :3

 

[Browd]

Moderator Action: Please keep it civil, folks.

 

[poom3619]

I agree, the neither extremes of blank slate or predestined story feels satisfying.

I'd prefer leader personalities and faction culture to be open to develop in different ways while still having their own unique implications.

I'd think purity Elodie would be substantially different in philosophy and culture than, say, purity Bolivar.

One of the most endearing aspects of Civ games is watching a world emerge as you play, with its own unique history and struggles.

We can have flavor text for every affinity and (my idea of) sub-affinity. If we assume that the quest become meaningful in foreseeable future. I would like to see the tech quotes & quest text reflect the worldview of player's civ when they past the certain point. (Voiceover isn't necessary)

I also think that the affinity is actually constrain the playstyle and somehow limit it's interpretation. Hybrid aff. is... good. But I would like to explore that what exactly is "Purity". Say, if Purity is "to preserve the humanity" then why and what we should preserve, and what is considered impunity of humanity? IMO, I would prefer branching of affinity to answer questions like... "Is cloned human pure?" or "What's our priority between enhance ourself to have power of hundreds or enhance our number hundredfold?" and this is just Purity, not thinking about other aff. and potential hybrid aff.

"As it was proved from our entire history of ruling, Fear is the most powerful discipline against men, so instead of making self-aware crowd-control vehicle. I find it's more worthwhile to make a simple robot that can fry enemy's eyes with high-precision heat laser the next times they blinks... Did I said it was non-lethal?"
If the game asked question like this to me...

 

[GAGA Extrem]

I think one of the things that take me out of BE is the fact that if you've seen one section of terrain, you've pretty much seen the whole planet. One of the cool things about SMAC was discovering landmarks, many of which prompted their own interludes such as the Manifold Nexus or the Unity Crash Site. There are zero landmarks in BE and that's really disappointing given the opportunities they've had.

Exploration in general doesn't feel very rewarding in BE (although neither did it in CIV5). All I need to find is space for 5 cities, after that I usually don't even scout past my neighbour's border. It feels kinda odd - I have come to a new planet, but I end my games with maybe 1/5th of the map explored. If even that much.

 

[Galgus]

We can have flavor text for every affinity and (my idea of) sub-affinity. If we assume that the quest become meaningful in foreseeable future. I would like to see the tech quotes & quest text reflect the worldview of player's civ when they past the certain point. (Voiceover isn't necessary)

I also think that the affinity is actually constrain the playstyle and somehow limit it's interpretation. Hybrid aff. is... good. But I would like to explore that what exactly is "Purity". Say, if Purity is "to preserve the humanity" then why and what we should preserve, and what is considered impunity of humanity? IMO, I would prefer branching of affinity to answer questions like... "Is cloned human pure?" or "What's our priority between enhance ourself to have power of hundreds or enhance our number hundredfold?" and this is just Purity, not thinking about other aff. and potential hybrid aff.

"As it was proved from our entire history of ruling, Fear is the most powerful discipline against men, so instead of making self-aware crowd-control vehicle. I find it's more worthwhile to make a simple robot that can fry enemy's eyes with high-precision heat laser the next times they blinks... Did I said it was non-lethal?"
If the game asked question like this to me...

It would be nice if quest text acknowledged your affinity and/ or sponsor.

I could see affinity and hybrid quest decisions that would both define your take on the philosophy and give a chosen bonus.

It could be a way to tie the affinities into the mechanics - something that is very lacking at the moment.

As much as I love LEV Destroyers, crushing the impure with them doesn't really tell me much about the subtleties of Purity philosophy and my colony's culture.
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@GAGA Extrem

I agree that exploration both doesn't feel rewarding and that it should.

I think several things could help improve this.

1. Natural Wonders. I would make them upgradable with Affinity quest decisions to scale.

2. More benefit from supply drops and exploration sites to reward exploration.

3. Quests that are both unlocked by discoveries and encourage contention over them, helping first comers.

4. Perhaps more power with resources to make discovering a resource rich area more enticing.

 

[Westwall]

I see nothing wrong with self-contained stories. That still leaves plenty of room for you to form your own overarching tale.

Look at Endless Legend. Every quest you pursue is a self-contained story that nevertheless feels satisfying. You kill nearby monsters to help win the favor of certain groups and are often able to draft their units into your service.

And each quest provides unique art. Meanwhile BE offers NO unique art per quest and most of them are just choices that basically come down "Do you want faster worker speed or more food?"

Yeah that's not exactly going to engage me and immerse me in the world and narrative, sorry.

 

[Galgus]

I see nothing wrong with self-contained stories. That still leaves plenty of room for you to form your own overarching tale.

Look at Endless Legend. Every quest you pursue is a self-contained story that nevertheless feels satisfying. You kill nearby monsters to help win the favor of certain groups and are often able to draft their units into your service.

And each quest provides unique art. Meanwhile BE offers NO unique art per quest and most of them are just choices that basically come down "Do you want faster worker speed or more food?"

Yeah that's not exactly going to engage me and immerse me in the world and narrative, sorry.

It may be too time consuming, particularly with a proper Quest expansion, but I'd like to see art for quest completions.

(Real quests, not those building options.)

It would be cool to see a glimpse into what happened.

 

[Lord Tirian]

It may be too time consuming, particularly with a proper Quest expansion, but I'd like to see art for quest completions.

Yeah, personally, I think I could actually totally forgo painting-style wonder art if we got nice concept art-like splash screens for finishing a quest chain and important affinity level ups (i.e. the break points where your city art flips and when you reach enough affinity to start working on victories).

These are really the times when your faction fundamentally changes and literally seeing that would help a lot.

On another, more positive note, I actually really like how consistent Civ:BE's tech web is. Despite the lack of hard dependences, most paths really make sense and you can kind of see how one goes to another (apart from some exceptions, like autogyros, which are on the outer ring and are somehow explained as something invented during early colonisation).

As much as I liked blind research in SMAC for flavour, I actually think the tech web is vastly superior in representing the same concept, namely future techs being too unknown to exactly know what leads to what. You still get the mutable research path but without the strategy-undermining randomness.

 

[Galgus]

Oh, that would be beautiful alongside Affinity quotes - maybe even technology quotes, though that's getting a bit insane.

It wouldn't even have to be anything very dramatic.

A Purity aligned university classroom with proper aesthetic nods to the past to the quote "The arc of civilizations stretches from the Indus and Mesopotamia to the edge of this world in a strong and unbroken line." - Jan de Varrache, Legenda Aurea

A bunch of dead Aliens in a salvage yard - dare say one on a grill - with Soldiers congratulating each other for the early quest option to kill Aliens that grants food.

...Obviously I'm most familiar with Purity lines.

Anyway, the idea would be to provide little glimpses into life in your colony.

 

[poom3619]

Oh, that would be beautiful alongside Affinity quotes - maybe even technology quotes, though that's getting a bit insane.

It would even have to be anything very dramatic.

A Purity aligned university classroom with proper aesthetic nods to the past to the quote "The arc of civilizations stretches from the Indus and Mesopotamia to the edge of this world in a strong and unbroken line." - Jan de Varrache, Legenda Aurea

A bunch of dead Aliens in a salvage yard - dare say one on a grill - with Soldiers congratulating each other for the early quest option to kill Aliens that grants food.

...Obviously I'm most familiar with Purity lines.

Anyway, the idea would be to provide little glimpses into life in your colony.

Like this? (Done with paint.NET in 5 minutes. I doubt it would take more than few hours of code to implement in game)