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bed_01 - Commercialistic English

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by bed_head7, Oct 13, 2004.

  1. Hajime

    Hajime Warlord

    Oct 3, 2004
    Frank: It will probably take us another 40 to 50 turns to research Republic - if that's what we go after - and then another 40 to 50 turns to research Lit.

    Plus, Lit has libraries to boot - needed if we plan to do -any- researching on our own, as you've mentioned.

    I'm a bit confused as to what everyone is saying, I admit. Tim's argument so far is the most reasoned and logical - if the only argument that way that I have read so far.

    I noted the reasons earlier why Frank seemed to contradict himself - he stated that we'd research on our own, -but- Libraries effectively allow for a 50% research boost which is -highly- needed if we do research on our own.

    Bed: What's your input as to what techs we go after? And are there -any- plans to do self-research in any significant amounts?

    My gut instinct is to go after Lit, build GLib, go straight for MA - ignoring govs - and go straight for military tradition with all possible speed, letting the comp research the techs for us that we ignore. We'll end up with a significant tech lead, the ability to research things on our own, and the end result has the fewest risks that seem to pay off the most of any option discussed here - including Glight. This is even if we go after warmongering - it's not mutually incompatible to go after Glib and warmonger.

    In fact, considering that mathematics is the only other tech that will add significantly to our warmaking abilities - and we can buy it - the only other logical option is CoL.

    However, the only reason to go after CoL immediately is for Republic, correct?

    Now, we can't match the CPU in researching immediately. That is obvious. If we do have a monopoly on Phil, then we can trade that off for what we need - i.e. CoL, which from what I'm reading up on, the comp will likely research, and finish before us to boot - and it will not research Lit.

    If we go Warmongering, Math would be great for cats - they will help immensely. However, we can buy it.

    CoL no one has researched, but it only gives courthouses, and opens the path to Republic. If we plan to warmonger, Republic is not a good government to facilitate that path - we should head towards Monarchy, correct?

    We can buy mysticism, and research poly - which puts us on the way to Monarchy. If we plan to warmonger, this is the best government we can have in the AA for these purposes.

    Construction has some nice benefits, but if we are going to war with Carthage, we'll need military might more then cities that can go beyond 6 pop. Iron working leads to Construction, as does Math - we can buy both. Iron working is something that we'll need for warmongering if we do not already have it (At the Uni atm, no Civ3 access), so that seems something that needs to be bought immediately.

    Lit does not lead to any immediately benefits. However, if we build libraries in our main city, it effectively increases money we make by 50% in that city - we can cut research by a good bit and have the same net amount of research. This allows for more troops and money to upgrade troops, as well as money to trade for techs. If we build Glib, then it allows for a tech lead if we take our research options correctly, which allows us to build better units faster - as well as allows us to target resources our enemy can't see yet, i.e. saltpeter, which allows us to effectively castrate an enemies defensive abilities. Plus it's great tradebait.

    Would someone care to refute my arguments? I'm really not seeing the reasoning behind CoL and Republic if we are going to war...
  2. TimBentley

    TimBentley Deity

    Apr 26, 2004
    Troy, MI
    I believe the only intended war at the moment is with Carthage. A republic is fine for minor, controlled warmongering. I believe the intention was a modern age victory where we use our commercial trait to make money and have a lot of gold per turn. Also we shall stop research after mass production. Republic is a good tech broker government. I believe we will be taking advantage of our men-of-war, but I think the goal was otherwise to be semi-peaceful. But I'm open to the idea of getting literature first.

  3. Hajime

    Hajime Warlord

    Oct 3, 2004

    So, the big question now is CoL->Repub vs. Lit then, Tim.

    My gut instinct is to go for Lit, then let the comp research Republic for us via Glib.

    Comp'll be done with Repub waay before us, and we can use techs to trade for things we need - resources, luxuries, etc. - that we'd have to pay out of the nose for otherwise.

    Looking more closely at the map, I don't think we have a source of iron. After looking at a few things, I believe that Carthage has a source of iron.

    If we go to war, we want to grab the Dyes from Theveste guarenteed. But we'll also need a way to divest Carthage of it's iron - suggestions anyone? We will also probably want to capture Utica, to remove them from a source of horses.
  4. bed_head7

    bed_head7 Deity

    Jun 16, 2004
    Since we'll be the only ones with the prerequisites for Republic, it shouldn't be a problem beating the computer to it even at minimum. So at this point, following that path is my preference. As TimBentley pointed out, this wasn't intended as an all out war game, but a game emphasizing trading. It would be nice to have everyone gracious with us at the end, though unimportant, it would feel right. Building the Great Library just feels wrong for this game to me. And I doubt it will save us 1600 gold (1 shield = 4 gold). CoL is usually researched later than Construction and Polytheism but before Currency, so that does leave plenty of time where we will have it as a monopoly tech.

    How do we know Carthage already has iron? And if it does, it is likely not connected yet. More important is for us to have iron and be able to build swords, although against Numidian Mercenaries we will probably need catapults more than anything else.
  5. Hajime

    Hajime Warlord

    Oct 3, 2004
    bed: It's just a best guess.

    I think Carthage has iron, but have no proof ;).

    I'm not willing to start this game untill we are all in general agreement on techs - we're at a really critical point right now.

    CoL seems to get wide approval, so I'll probably end up going that route, then researching Republic once the Phil freebie kicks in. At least if no one has any objections to that ;).
  6. SJ Frank

    SJ Frank Spamalot Co-court

    Sep 17, 2002
    The hill tile S-SE of San Francisco
    40-50 turns later, we will be large enough to research Literature under 20. But the general idea is right, if we go after Republic right now, we may not get be able to self research literature and get it at monopoly.

    What I meant was that, we could research the Literature tech by ourselves. I didn't mean to say anything about doing any researching afterwards. Sorry if I confused some of you.

    My vote is CoL, then Republic at max. We have a nice 4-turn factory and a big empire, I think we may be able to get Republic in under 40 turns, especially if we shut down the settler factory in London (a 2-turn worker factory at size 6-7 is what I have in mind, maybe even squeeze in a 30 shield harbor first while going from size 4-6).
  7. Hajime

    Hajime Warlord

    Oct 3, 2004
  8. Hajime

    Hajime Warlord

    Oct 3, 2004
    Turn 0, 1525 BC: Nothing

    IBT: Carthage offers us Warrior Code for 170 gold. I take it. (Worth it for 170 gold!)

    Turn 1, 1500BC: Phil finishes. Set it to CoL, CoL received for free. Set it to Republic, earliest it can be gotten is in 42 turns - set it to 10% at 27gpt profit a turn.
    York produces Warrior, set it to Warrior.
    Hastings produces Curragh. Set it to Curragh again.
    Used various warrior units to play BLOCKER, BLOCKER with the AI's settlers.

    IBT: Lots of threats to remove ships from territory.
    Traded Writing + 15g to Sumeria for Iron Working - found out Sumeria had iron nwear Theveste. (Only people that Sumeria knew had writing.)

    Turn 2, 1475 BC: More crazy hijinks blocking off Sumerian settlers.

    Turn 3, 1450 BC: More crazy hijinks
    London produces Settler. Set it to Warrior for it to reach 4, and to hopefully start a 4-6 factory.
    Oxford founded on yellow dot. Set it to Warrior.

    Turn 4, 1425 BC: Crazy Hijinks ensue
    York produces Warrior - Set it to Spearman

    Turn 5, 1400BC: London produces Warrior. Set it to Settler
    Warwick produces Curragh - Curragh again.
    Newcastle has produced Worker - set it to Warrior
    Traded Portugal Philosophy for Mysticism, Horseback Riding, and 40 gold.
    Traded Carthage Iron Working, Mysticism, Horseback Riding, and Philosophy in trade for Map Making and 390 gold.
    Traded Sumeria Map Making + 320 gold for Mathematics.
    Traded Sumeria Philosophy for 359 gold.
    Traded Portugal Map Making for 290 gold.

    TECH SIDENOTE: We now have a monopoly on Code of Laws, and we have a monopoly on Mathematics with our direct neighbors. We also have a 1000 gold reserve, which I'm putting to good use by maxing out science and having it draw on that :p.

    IBT: Carthaginians are building Mausoleum of M
    Koreans built The Colossus

    Turn 6, 1375 BC: Moved Tech slider to 90%, republic in 30, -3gpt.
    Manipulated warriors for contentment/AI blocking.

    Turn 7, 1350 BC: Not much

    Turn 8, 1325 BC: York produced Spearmen. Set it to Spearmen (Next player, feel free to change.)
    Coventry produced Worker. Set it to Spearmen (Next player, feel free to change.)
    Connected Gems to our cities - Yay! -10% Lux! Republic in 25!

    IBT: Contacted the Ottomans!

    Turn 9, 1300 BC: London produced Settler.
    Set it to Warrior
    Founded Liverpool - set it to Worker

    Turn 10, 1275 BC: Nottingham finishes Courthouse.
    Set it to Harbor.
  9. TimBentley

    TimBentley Deity

    Apr 26, 2004
    Troy, MI
    Good trading. Got it. Will play tomorrow.

    It looks like there's room for two cities before the marsh is cleared: the cyan area and near the south. I haven't looked at the save very closely, so I wouldn't be very surprised if I'm wrong. We could go for the islands, of course. The iron island is an interesting possibility, although it would take a while to get the harbor online, so it probably wouldn't be worth it. Liverpool already has 60% corruption (but is it connected to the capital? I don't feel like looking at the save again), so the islands would be quite corrupt and probably not worth it.

    I wonder if London could be a 2-turn warrior/worker factory? I believe it could.
  10. Hajime

    Hajime Warlord

    Oct 3, 2004
    Just capture Theveste and it's sister city.

    Dyes+Iron+Horses on the same continent.
  11. TimBentley

    TimBentley Deity

    Apr 26, 2004
    Troy, MI
    1275(0)-It's turn 69, so I'll play 11 to get to an even number of turns
    too many military builds with no barracks
    MM London to whale
    switch London to barracks
    MM York for more food
    switch Hastings to barracks
    switch Coventry to harbor
    switch Warwick to barracks, MM it for more gold losing corrupted shield
    switch Newcastle to worker
    not sure what to build in Oxford, so start courthouse (next player can change)
    raise lux to 10% for Nottingham, MM forest to plain for more gold losing corrupted shield, MM 1-gold plain to fish for more gold, set to emphasize production

    1250(1)-see blue border

    IBT-York spear->warrior

    1225(2)-meet Korea
    they have six cities, 34g, iron and horses, are down philosophy, code of laws, map making

    IBT-I just met them, and Korea already asks me to leave; I lie and say I'll leave
    Hastings barracks->horseman
    Canterbury galley->harbor
    Ottomans start Statue of Zeus (in Istanbul)


    IBT-Portugal demands CoL, I grudgingly give in
    York warrior->horseman
    Nottingham harbor->worker

    1175(4)-sell CoL to Carthage for 61g so Portugal can't
    found Dover on Cyan dot, start on worker

    IBT-London barracks->worker
    Nottingham worker->worker
    Newcastle worker->worker

    1150(5)-Carthage knows mathematics
    sell mathematics to Portugal for silks, 35g
    lower lux to 10%
    meet Iroquois
    they have eight cities, 46g, horses, incense, spices, are even in techs

    IBT-London worker->horseman
    Rotterdam (Dutch) finishes Great Lighthouse
    Portugal drops settler near our settler

    1125(6)-Sumeria knows polytheism, Korea and Iroquois know polytheism and currency, all three are broke
    upgrade curragh to galley

    IBT-I lie to the Iroquois, saying I'll leave
    Nottingham worker->worker
    Carthage starts MoM in Carthage
    Sumeria starts ToA in Ur
    Portugal starts MoM in Guimaraes
    Korea starts ToA in Seoul
    Iroquois starts ToA in Salamanca

    1100(7)-Forgot to set science to 100% until now
    beat Portugal and found Brighton in south, start on worker

    IBT-Korea starts MoM in Wonsan

    1075(8)-Ottomans and Korea know construction, Sumeria knows currency and construction
    buy construction and 11g from Ottomans for code of laws, philosophy, map making
    buy currency from Iroquois for construction, 55g
    switch London to marketplace
    Hire scientist in London so marketplace will finish one turn before growth, allowing a 4-turn worker/horseman factory

    IBT-barb galley kills curragh by other continent
    York horseman->horseman
    Nottingham worker->worker
    Liverpool worker->courthouse (feel free to change this)

    1050(9)-start a suicide curragh, get a suicide galley ready

    IBT-Hastings horseman->horseman
    Warwick barracks->horseman
    suicide curragh dies


    IBT-Nottingham worker->worker
    Carthage finishes MoM
    Sumeria starts ToA in Sumer
    Lagash (Sumeria) finishes Statue of Zeus
    Ottomans start Sun Tzu's in Istanbul


    Nottingham is a two-turn worker factory, although it is wasting shields
    London can be a four-turn horseman/worker factory once the marketplace finishes
    There are other civilizations on the other continent, so getting another ship over there would be greatly desired
    Polytheism can be bought for about 500g, although I'm not sure there's a rush to get it
    We're technologically ahead of Carthage and Portugal
    The worker count has doubled in my turns, but we still need more
    Republic is due in 7 turns

    Here is the save.


    LulThyme - up
    bed_head7 - on deck
    SJ Frank
    TimBentley - just played
  12. LulThyme

    LulThyme King

    Sep 15, 2004
    Got it, will be done by tonight if there is no problem.
  13. LulThyme

    LulThyme King

    Sep 15, 2004
    just so we all agree
    1) What do we do about the iron situation... Since we want to play a traders game, military isnt crucial, but we need iron for rails in the long run anyway... Now as was mentionned, there are small islands with iron in the south, but the iron is in a mountain so we would need a settler\worker team and rush a harbor or wait a long time.
    The other option would be to attack Carthage, and steal at least the iron city or even more... If we choose this option, better attack soon, before they get many pikemen (they are 3 techs away from middle ages and Im not even sure the iron is connected...)
    2) How early do we want to switch to Republic?
    right upon discovery? that would entail, I start slowly disbanding some warriors, since they wont be upgradable for at least 10-20 turns (this depends on the iron strategy of course) and will be a pain in our side in republic...
  14. LulThyme

    LulThyme King

    Sep 15, 2004
    My personnal idea would be to start building an army to attack Carthage in the middle term goal of destroying them. I think securing at least our continent can be fitted with the idea of mainly trading afterwards. We could switch to republic right after the war, when we would have an increased number of cities and decreased number of units, and more cities would be connected so happyness would be less of a problem and same with maintenance.
    The problem is that a war against Carthage even with limited objectives cannot be started in less than about 10-15 turns I would say.

    Another strategy would be to go for the iron in the islands, and start disbanding units to go for repu on turn of discovery.
  15. TimBentley

    TimBentley Deity

    Apr 26, 2004
    Troy, MI
  16. Gyathaar

    Gyathaar Warlock Retired Moderator GOTM Staff

    Nov 19, 2003
    Trondheim, Norway
    Cathage don't get pikemen.. they get a 2.3.1 spearman replacement as UU
  17. LulThyme

    LulThyme King

    Sep 15, 2004
    EDIT :
    you are right, they have defense 3 already.
    They will be hard, lots of their cities are on hills...

    And also their iron is connected, it shows in the trade screen...
  18. Gyathaar

    Gyathaar Warlock Retired Moderator GOTM Staff

    Nov 19, 2003
    Trondheim, Norway
    Point is they dont have to connect iron or get into middle ages for a 3 defense unit.. they already have a bunch of them probably :)
  19. LulThyme

    LulThyme King

    Sep 15, 2004
    1000 BC (turn 80) Switching horsemen builds to archer (Hastings, York,Warwick)... The rough terrain makes the extra movement not warrant the extra shields. Switch Oxford,Brighton to Harbor (these cities will be slow to connect to roads and have few good food tiles). I also switched Coventry from Harbor to Barracks, if we want to war we'll need at least 4 cities producing full time units I think.

    IBT nothing

    975 BC suicide galley meets byzantine (6 cities) which are in middle age like the rest of that continent, but cant reach coast, crew prays with fervour, I, of course lie about us leaving immediatly :) the curragh didnt seem to have much to do, so I decided to slowly bring it back for upgrade while exploring a bit...

    IBT Nothingham worker-> worker
    Oxford Harbor - >
    York Archer -> Archer
    suicide galley survives, yippee
    Carthaginians Galley seen heading to southern islands and returning.

    950 BC not much
    Dover Worker -> Worker
    Hastings Archer -> Archer
    Canterbury Harbor -> Galley (in preparation for a landing)
    Ottomans building ToA

    925 BC not much
    Newcastle Worker -> Worker
    Nothingham worker-> Worker
    Warwick Archer -> Archer
    Iroquois are at war with byzantines, and raze one of their cities and seem to be kicking their ass
    Carthago has built a city on southern island as I thought
    Meet some dutch galley near portugal, they must be from a new continent, its good luck I was sending my galley that way so ill try find it. They have 8 cities and are totally backwards! (dont have math, col, phil, HR).
    And they have extra iron! It'll probably be a while before we can trade with em so thats not a factor just yet.

    900 BC not much
    York,Hastings Archer -> Archer
    Koreans are building Sun Tzu
    2 barbs galley approaching ours near byzance

    875 BC
    Take a chance with the galleys, no point in retreating we must explore. : I see a new civ territory but cannot meet them yet, hoping the galleys dont come after me, or die trying :)
    Galley gets picked off by barbs :( If im not mistaken this is not far from a previous loss, we will have to be careful around this area.
    Portugal also founds a city with the Carthaginians on the south island.
    London marketplace -> Worker
    Nothingham worker-> Worker
    Coventry Barracks -> Archer

    850 BC
    Give money to dutch and get it all back plus 21 for horseback riding
    Get 2 workers from carthage for gems + 2 gpt + 14 gold (I went for turn deals, as hopefully they wont last the full 20 :) ) and slaves will be very useful when we want to go to repu and maintenance is killing us
    Science to 70% for repu in 1 turn
    Scientist becomes worker in London
    Republic->Lit (due in 7 turns)
    Volcano erupts near canterbury
    London worker->Horseman

    825 BC
    Suicide galley now two turns north of Portugal and sees another dutch galley, so its almost certain my gut feeling for where they came from was right. Im guessing if I dont die, I will find their continent next turn.
    Iroquois : repu for poly and 126 gold
    We enter middle ages!
    It seems our rivals are not that advanced. None have engineering, most have feudalism and only a few have monotheism.
    Sumeria : repu and 64 g for monotheism
    I learn in the trade screen that the koreans have betrayed the iroquois.. It seems this big continent will most of the AI s has seen a lot of fighting.
    Koreans : Feudalism for monotheism, republic and 114 gold
    Ottomans : Repu for 107 gold + 4 gpt
    Sumerians : Feudalism for 98 gold
    Byzantines : Republic for 62 gold +1 gpt

    We now have all techs, ahead of a couple, and only Koreans have any money left...
    Once the AIs switch out of Despotism, we should be able to get more gpt for every tech we trade them.

    The volcano destroyed one of the 2 gems, so now we are left without gems, this is bad.
    I decide the best thing to do in the meantime while I repair the situation is to trade Portugal for wines.
    It sucks that I traded the gems the turn right before the volcano :(

    Portugal : Polytheism for wines and 20 gold
    Carthaginians : Polytheism for 53 gold
    I also have to raise lux to 10% for London and Notthingham

    Nothingham,Liverpool worker-> Worker
    Carthage building ToA in Carthage

    800 BC
    Lower lux to 0 % again

    York,Hastings, Warwick Archer-> Archer
    Portugal building ToA

    775 BC
    We are now 2 over our unit support, I am starting to disband regular warriors in low production cities.
    I also noticed just now the Iroquois have captured at least another byzantines city.
    Switch Notthingham to Galley, as we will need at least 2-3 to attack Carthage, and we're doing ok worker wise.

    London Horsemen

    750 BC
    Finally found Dutch territory. It was further that I thought.
    They seem to be stuck in tundra, which explains their backwardness.

    Notes :
    Literature in 4 turns.
    We still have all discoverd techs, with a bit over 1100 gold. (-11 per turn, 2 of them unit maintenance)
    The priority (while reconnecting the gems) for the next player should be to start the war on Carthage.
    To get the iron, and reduce number of units, and to prepare a switch to Republic.
    3 Galleys (2 in production and the Curragh coming to be upgraded) for an initial task force of 6 units with reinforcements later should be able to eventually take the iron city.
    The rest of the forces could take Hippo and Sabratha by land during this time.
    We have 22 workers + 2 slaves
    13 warriors, 9 archers, 2 spearmen, 3 horsemen but we still are weak compared to carthaginians.
    We must expect at least 2 num. merc per city except the very small ones.
    There is a worker clearing the marsh near coventry done in 13 turns in preparation for a city there.

    I didnt bother changing production that wouldnt be finished before the end of my turns, so there are lot of changes.
    For example, I think the southern cities can stop producing workers, and London probably also, and Notthingham as a 2 turn factory after the galley should be enough of a supply.
    We also probably have enough archers, maybe a few horsemen and spearmen at this point could help, your call.
  20. Gyathaar

    Gyathaar Warlock Retired Moderator GOTM Staff

    Nov 19, 2003
    Trondheim, Norway
    The volcano taking out the gems isnt as bad as if it had taken out the city instead atleast ;)

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