Beelining Religion

[Bloodstone]

OK, this place is the most awesome place on the planet, so say the least. Makes the game experience a great one.

Wanted to start a quick discussion for debate. I really enjoy how they approached religions with this game. Their effective but not earth shattering. They're all pretty much an evenly matched group, helping to defray any serious issues (IMHO) with those that may feel slighted by a particular religion having something on another. That said, has anyone developed a specific strategy about "beelining" to an early religion? I can see that if it's established early and spread it can be a great $ boost. Just thought I would put it out there to see if anybody has a strategy about getting to religions and what the thinking is, I.e. cottage cities, production cities, etc.

 

[Jarlaxe Baenre]

Isabella of Spain with a coastal lake on one side and an ocean on the other (but less ocean tiles than lake). You can get techs so fast early on like that.

 

[Derakon]

Generally the conventional wisdom is that spreading religions yourself is too expensive to be worthwhile (outside of the occasional thorny diplomatic issue). It's far cheaper to let some AI spread them and spend the Great Prophet to get the religious site, and then use pointy-stick diplomacy to take it.

 

[Bloodstone]

Generally the conventional wisdom is that spreading religions yourself is too expensive to be worthwhile (outside of the occasional thorny diplomatic issue). It's far cheaper to let some AI spread them and spend the Great Prophet to get the religious site, and then use pointy-stick diplomacy to take it.

Are they really that much of an expense to spread? I just don't see this as the case. Of course I'm not a game Vet as some others are but I can't see being cost prohibitive. Then again i've been wrong at least once before

 

[Farm Boy]

The high cost is in production, not commerce or research. One can found an early religion without too much effort, but making that religion actually wide-spread enough to help you diplomatically or financially is going to require a great prophet(for the shrinegold and increased autospread) as well as a not-insignificant amount of hammers into missionaries. Generally it is the missionary hammers that break the deal.

It mostly a cost/benefit at this point - you can spend the hammers on missionaries or you can spend them on axes/spears/chariots/whatever. If you spend then on missionaries and all goes well, you wind up with an established religion with a shrine and religious buddies. If you spend them on military and all goes well, you can take an established religion's shrine and wind up with the shrine, possibly other wonders, religious buddies, and one dead religious buddy.

If you spend the hammers on military and things don't work out well you at least have some protection ready to go and you probably survive to readjust your strategy. If you spend the hammers on missionaries and all does not go well, an AI civ winds up with your shrine and you are dead.

 

[revengeofmakno]

If you spend the hammers on military and things don't work out well you at least have some protection ready to go and you probably survive to readjust your strategy. If you spend the hammers on missionaries and all does not go well, an AI civ winds up with your shrine and you are dead.

You got that right. Missionaries are useful but a dangerous drain on other priorities especially protection.

 

[george547]

Generally I don't found a religion (at least one of the important early ones) because the leaders I pick typically aren't suited to it and are more militaristic. But I'd like to try a game where I found an early religion some time. I do remember one game where I did and I managed to spread it throughout the continent and still keep up a strong enough military force to avoid being declared on out of sheer weakness, but I never finished that game and now I've lost the save. But it never seemed that hard.

That said, I do only play on noble. On the higher difficulties I imagine your own survival and the need for a strong military is definitely a much higher priority than trying to found and spread a religion, even despite the high potential diplomatic bonuses, because you could get attacked and defeated much quicker. Unless you somehow manage to spread your religion very far, very fast.

 

[kochman]

Generally the conventional wisdom is that spreading religions yourself is too expensive to be worthwhile (outside of the occasional thorny diplomatic issue). It's far cheaper to let some AI spread them and spend the Great Prophet to get the religious site, and then use pointy-stick diplomacy to take it.

This is exactly right.
You spend beakers on researching it, hammers on spreading it, GP on making it matter...

OR

Just take it from your enemy already spread and with a shrine... then make that city your wall street and corporate HQ city.
BIG MONEY!!!

 

[revengeofmakno]

Just take it from your enemy already spread and with a shrine... then make that city your wall street and corporate HQ city.
BIG MONEY!!!

Effective strategy for sure and with the sublime irony of milking the world economy from multiple angles from the same location.

 

[kochman]

If you are really fortunate, you can get the Spiral Minaret in that same city... and if you are really really lucky, it has founded two religions! Often Indian with Buddhism and Hinduism or Judaism...
I LOVE when that happens.

 

[Countmonte8242]

If you enjoy founding your own religion and then defending it against heathens, rather than being the barbaric heathen, you can sometimes spread your religion pretty quickly early on without building missionaries. Obviously it depends on the map and such to begin with. Yeah, shrines help and you'll want to build it as soon as you can, but even more important is getting open borders asap and getting the trade symbol next to all civs. Fastest way to do that is to get sailing asap. Try playing a Terra map, found either Budd (unlikely on higher difficulties depending on how big the map is), Hinduism or Jud. Then get Writing (for open borders with all) and Sailing before your competitors and you hopefully can convert at least half of the continent's civs your way without building a single missionary.

Somebody suggested Isabella above since Spain has Mysticism and Fishing out of the gate to get that first tech (either meditation or poly) as soon as you can. Even better, if you don't mind messing around with the order of things via unrestricted leaders, is to use a financial leader with Spain.

 

[plasmacannon]

Spain has the fastest path to gain Hinduism or potentially Buddism, due to its starting techs.
Also, India, Korea and Maya all start with Mysticism and Mining, so, are good to get Judaism and OR quickly.
Noble is a good setting for mas numbers of religions.
I have actually gotten all 7 religions. My goal was to build as many religious buildings as possible, and all of the Wonders that grant them bonuses, Like Spiral Minerat and Notre Dame.
You can gain alot of gold, culture and research from this strategy, but, you are basically giving up on an early rush for many empires.
Egypt might be a good one, if you want war too. He has a Great early UU, and the UB to earn you all of those Great Prophets you will need.
Ramsses can build the wonders when you get them, and switch civics as you like easily.

If you pump out missionaries and open boarders with you neighbors, they usually convert to your religion, which means safety, because, they usually don't fight "Brothers of the Faith".

 

[Clam Spammer]

One thing that I think a lot of people don't consider here is opportunity cost: while you were busy building temples and running priests to get a Great Prophet, you could have instead built a library and farmed a Great Scientist. Bulbing a tech like Paper or Philosophy and trading it to a few civs can instantly pay off more than a shrine ever could.

IMHO 1 gold per city is too weak. They buffed Spiral Minaret from 1 gold to 2 after Vanilla - maybe they could have done the same with shrines.

 

[Derakon]

If you buff shrines like that, then the strategy of capturing them becomes even more dominant. The problem is more that the investment cost of getting a religion up off the ground is prohibitive at higher levels, when you can't afford to spend hundreds of hammers on marginal returns.

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

As a Spiritual leader, I get more benefit out of founding a religion than the military dudes. So, if you really like playing around with religion, then I recommend you select one of the Spiritualists as your leader. That is why at the lower difficulty levels (i.e., below Emperor), I always founded a religion. As far as spreading it, you definitely want to spread it to your other cities. Sometimes I will send a missionary to another civ to tip the religious diplomacy in my favor, but not to gain the gold. At the higher difficulty levels, founding the early religions can be hazzardous to your health for various reasons. Good players' advice (and painful experience) convinced me of that. Now, if can get Horses in Thebes and Marble is in my first two cities, I will take a shot at founding Hinduism, because even if I miss, I can often use it to build Artemis and/or Pantheon in Thebes. However, that is an exceptional situation. I am currently playing at Immortal, and one of the most frustrating things is how long it takes for a religion to come to me and, then, it is often an odd religion that would be suicide to adopt. One option is to beeline to COL to found Confucionism if the religious landscape is suitable.

 

[Ryuujin]

I've been in kind of a rut of chopping out SH for convenience and Oracle for Monarchy/HR. I like being able to grow my cities quick, what can I say. Conveniently this leads to a quick GP or two, so if I research Mono and the other religion tech I missed, it sets me up for an early bulb of Theology soon after. I've had at least one game where I had the Church of the Nativity built before 1000 BC. It sets you up to build the Apostolic Palace at your convenience, if you so desire, and if you're playing Sitting Bull it sets you up nicely for your Drill IV longbows.

I don't make any real effort to spread religions, but it seems that if you have a Shrine and a good trade network it works itself out just fine.

It may not be feasable, or wise, at the highest difficulty levels, but it certainly works at Monarch/Emperor.

 

[Bloodstone]

If you buff shrines like that, then the strategy of capturing them becomes even more dominant. The problem is more that the investment cost of getting a religion up off the ground is prohibitive at higher levels, when you can't afford to spend hundreds of hammers on marginal returns.

I'm not to the point of playing those "upper levels" just yet, I still enjoy playing noble and the one above it (don't remember off top of my head).

That said I'll probably adopt a different view of beelining to religous things when I get there, but I choose to look at it more from a period perspective rather than being a leader who is worried about a "space race" victory. Let's face it most civilizations have been strongly influenced in one way shape or form by a religion. I think the games creators did very well being able to introduce it and still keep it general enough to not really make people unhappy.

Though I have a general strategy of how I want to attain victory I usually find that the joy for me with Civ is in the journey and building of the empire, not so much what's going to show up on the HOF screen.

But the above debate is exactly what I wanted to hear from the more experienced players. I can see why investing in religions can detract from most players drive to win, I just still think it's an important advance in the game itself that has taken the game to a new level. Along the lines of what Espionage and Corporations have done for BtS.

 

[kochman]

The point being, you probably won't get to the higher levels using any founding religions type of strategy... so why bother... time to adapt and overcome.
Just saying...

 

[Derakon]

If he doesn't feel like climbing the difficulty ladder, then there's no problem with him staying at Noble and using whatever strategies he happens to favor, optimal or not. There's no rule that says that you should always be playing at the toughest level you can handle.

 

[Bloodstone]

The point being, you probably won't get to the higher levels using any founding religions type of strategy... so why bother... time to adapt and overcome.
Just saying...

I do realize that and honestly I'll still probably try, that's the beauty of this Game and has been a theme of the replayability of Sid games since the beginning. I was really trying to get a feel for whether people had actual strategies for obtaining Quick Religions, more so than it's actual path to victory. I try to look at the expansion of my Civ through each age, and pay less attention to "early" victories, as my enjoyment comes from the building, design, and micro management of the Empire.