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Before the Big Bang

Discussion in 'Science & Technology' started by lumpthing, Jul 31, 2009.

  1. AngryZealot

    AngryZealot King

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    No, because physical matter (as we know it) cannot exist without space, and space cannot exist without time.

    Sure. We don't know that the big bang actually created anything. What we call the big bang is the extrapolated start of the expansion of the universe.

    Time cannot exist without space.

    I'm not quite sure what you mean, but because of relativity I'm going to say passive.
     
  2. Meteor Man

    Meteor Man En Route to M81

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    I thought you said that space cannot exist without time?
     
  3. AngryZealot

    AngryZealot King

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    It goes both ways.
     
  4. achilleszero

    achilleszero Emperor

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    Theres a small movement that says time may not even exist. Heres one article about it.
    http://discovermagazine.com/2007/jun/in-no-time

    Supposedly not even the higher dimensions existed all the ones 5th to whatever, were all rolled into one immeasurable point.

    Exactly. No left, right, maybe, or even the abstract concept of nothingness existed.

    I dont think anybody does. They cant even figure out if we wound up with our current "somethingness" because of the of laws of physics, or if the laws of physics are dependent on the type of "somethingness."

    Sounds like my neighbor.
     
  5. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Super Moderator Supporter

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    I was essentially getting at the idea of whether time causes things or passively denotes intervals of change.

    OK. But does time exist in a space that is at zero degrees kelvin?

    Thanks. I am of the notion that time is not fundamental and certainly may not be real. The first quote is from your link and the second from Robert Lanza on biocentrism.

    I would say that both of these get closer to how I feel about time and its place in the universe: time is something we use to organize things. It is not unlike mathematics in that it makes understanding things easier.
     
  6. achilleszero

    achilleszero Emperor

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    Glad to see someone of like mind on the subject. It would seem to fly in the face of einstien and everything physicists have been telling us for years, but I am totally at peace with it. My father (who is by no means a physicist) told me since I was a child that there was no such thing as time. Despite what we heard on Newton's Apple or read in Scientific America. Now its good to see some physics catch up to my farm-boy fathers theories:).

    To answer your question on time existing at 0 Kelvin. I would hypothesize it doesnt (also I am no physicist and a high school dropout, so take all this for what its worth). Since time really only has meaning in movement and change, and since all movement would cease at 0, then I think even the abstract of time would lose meaning.
     
  7. AngryZealot

    AngryZealot King

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    Space itself does not have a temperature. Temperature is only a measure of the average kinetic energy of the matter within space. It's not actually possible to cool matter to 0 Kelvin, since there is no zero quantum energy level. Consider it from the perspective of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. If you know an element of matter is at 0 Kelvin then you know exactly its momentum: 0. This would put infinite uncertainty on the matter's position in space. So I don't think talking about time in terms of 0 Kelvin reflects the physical world.
     
  8. Omni314

    Omni314 Prince

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    To explain time, it slows when in a gravitational field, the stronger the field the more time slows, so at moment of the big bang all mass was in one point so time slows to a stop, and that is why there is no time "before" the big bang.
     
  9. achilleszero

    achilleszero Emperor

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    Wouldnt that be dependent on gravity existing? Didnt the big bang create gravity and time?
     
  10. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Super Moderator Supporter

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    Nice distinction, thanks. I still think, though, that at zero kelvin (or close to it), time would cease for the matter in question.

    How do you define "time"? What is it in your mind?
     
  11. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    I think that one force split into a whole bunch of forces during early inflation, and that's where gravity came from, but don't quote me on it.
     
  12. achilleszero

    achilleszero Emperor

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    Well if thats true then it would only further expound my point of gravity wasnt around at the big bang.
     
  13. uppi

    uppi Deity

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    No. Matter close to zero kelvin does behave normally regarding time. There is nothing to suggest that time behaves differently at extremely low temperatures. Unless we detect anything differently we have to assume that for a hypothetical zero kelvin state time would behave normally.

    You can think all you want about time behaving differently at zero kelvin, but all experimental evidence points the other way.
     
  14. uppi

    uppi Deity

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    That's only true, if all forces can be unified. As nobody has come up with a consistent unified theory yet, that's just speculation.
     
  15. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Super Moderator Supporter

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    How does time behave? What is "normal behavior" for time? What is the relationship between matter and time?
     
  16. uppi

    uppi Deity

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    Invariance and unidirectionality would be examples of "normal behavior" of time. In this context "normal behavior" means, that the quantum mechanical time evolution does not depend on temperature in any way.

    To explain the full relationship of matter and time, one would have dive deep into General Relativity.
     
  17. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Super Moderator Supporter

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    Invariance. What do you mean? Time doesn't change? It is always uniform? I do not know what you mean.

    What is "quantum mechanical time evolution"?

    I am not interested in a full discourse on time and matter. How about just a superficial one that explains how they are connected conceptually.

    Maybe you need to start with a definition of what you mean by time. Can you define it?
     
  18. achilleszero

    achilleszero Emperor

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    I also would like a definition of this force called time.

    What evidence and how were they measuring it? With a clock? That clock wouldnt be at 0 kelvin so it would be in a different frame of reference. I gaurantee if they put that clock in 0 kelvin, it would stop.

    So what else do they use to measure time?
     
  19. uppi

    uppi Deity

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    Time-invariance means that under the same initial conditions, the result doesn't depend on when something is started. If I am doing the exact same experiment (of course this is difficult in practice), it doesn't matter, whether I am doing it the first or the millionth time.

    The way a state behaves if time progresses. In classical quantum mechanics, this basically means the Schödinger equation.

    I'll give it a try: Time is a coordinate to order events according to their (potential) causality. That means that all events that could (theoretically) have influenced a certain event get assigned a lesser value, all events that this event could (theoretically) influence get assigned a greater value.
     
  20. achilleszero

    achilleszero Emperor

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    That doesnt sound like a fundemental force of nature. That just sounds like a "tape measure" that mankind made up.
     

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