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Beginner needs a little help with this scenario

Discussion in 'Civ3 - General Discussions' started by Cleosith, Feb 20, 2004.

  1. Cleosith

    Cleosith Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2004
    Messages:
    6
    Hi everyone,

    I just signed on to this forum after recently picking up a civ game (Civ 3) for the first time. I'm really digging this type of game and I love the complexity of it. When you have a 9 week old baby that simply wont sleep at 3AM, there's nothing better than the hum of the computer and being able to use one hand to play Civ while bouncing baby with the other hand.

    Anyways, I'm playing the Ottomans (dont ask why, it was a random choice, although I wanted a civ that wasnt militaristic) and I have 7 cities with access a number of luxuries and a couple of strategic resources (iron and horses). I'm squeezed exactly between the arabians who are constantly annoyed with me, and the Persians who are polite but have been extorting money and techs from since the beginning of the game. I have 3 military units in each city plus I seem to be the only tribe with swordsmen. I've managed to deny every tribe the iron making tech and I dont think any of them have iron access.

    But here's my problem. The Persian military outnumbers mine and I know if I piss them off at all they will wage war on me. Both Arabia and Persia have the same luxuries as me so even though Ive built roads to their capitals I cant trade with them and increase my diplomatic bonds.

    How do I stop Persia from extorting from me without going to war with them (they've already demanded stuff 3 times and I have complied). If I pumped out a huge military Im sure they'd back off, but I dont want to play a military game. I want to develop and build. Which also brings me to another question. How does Persia outnumber me so badly and yet still manage to be 3 techs ahead? I'm constantly micromanaging every element of my production and yet it seems all the civs are ahead of me in techs.

    Anyways, I hope I wasnt too long winded. I eagerly await anyone's advice.

    Cleo
     
  2. ainwood

    ainwood Consultant. Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2001
    Messages:
    30,060
    Persia are a scientific civ, so they can build cheap libraries for research. Also, they are probably trading agressively with other AI for techs - you don't mention what level you are playing on, but the AI gets 'discounts' at higher levels.

    Persia is also an agressive civ, and their immortals are quite strong. In your position, if I had iron and xerxes didn't, then I would strengthen up with horses and swordsmen, and attack early!

    If you don't want to do that, then I suggest the following: Maintain 3 or so spearman in your cities near the border with the AI. Don't worry too much about keeping the core cities defended as strongly (just don't let the AI walk all over your land). And keep trading! Even if its only swapping your map for 1GPT! Buying techs in trades where you pay x Gold-per-turn is a good strategy for preventing civs attacking you. If they are 'polite', then an attack is less likely, although aggressive civs will often attack anyway.

    Note that you need to keep your defenders 'up-to-date'. The AI evalutates your strength based on the relative abilities (Attack & defence) of your forces, and if they feel they are strong compared to you, then they may attack - go to your military advisor, select the comparison to the AI of interest, and see what the military advisor says "Compared to these guys, we have a strong military".
     
  3. IglooDude

    IglooDude Enforcing Rule 34 Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2003
    Messages:
    21,384
    Location:
    Igloo, New Hampshire
    Well, first things first:

    Welcome to CFC!!

    [dance] :band: [dance] [party]

    Secondly, good call on teaching the baby to play Civ3, you really can't start too early in teaching them the important stuff. :D

    Third... If you've managed to keep the Persians iron-free (either by denying the tech or the resource itself) then attack them right away before they get Immortals.

    The only way to consistently prevent AI civs from extorting everything from you is to build up a significant military. I think you'll find that once you militarize they'll leave you to develop and build.

    What version are you playing, by the way? In Conquests you can't trade early techs, but it sounds like what is happening is that the civs are all trading techs between themselves which explains Persia's ability to get ahead in tech while still building up military.
     
  4. al_thor

    al_thor Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2003
    Messages:
    595
    Location:
    Wisconsin, USA
    The time to strike is now.
    1. Persia does not know Iron Working.
    2. You have no way of knowing if he has access to Iron.
    3. If Persia is allowed access to Iron, he will build Immortals and then you will be truly sorry.

    Take him out now. Build Swordsman. Accumulate like 6 or 8 Swordsmen (or more) and several Spearmen (preferably ALL Veterans). Either get him to declare war on you (does he have any units on your territory - tell him Leave or declare war), or just declare war on him (do NOT have any of your units on his land at the time, just stack them up close). Ravage him. Take as many cities as you can. In fact, take them ALL if possible. Have settler(s) and some workers ready. Workers can hook up newly conquered cities with roads. Settlers to "fill in" empty spaces or where cities get demolished from conquest or to secure future resources/luxuries.
    This will do many things for you:
    1. Greatly reduce the threat of the very powerful Immortals.
    2. You expand your own territory.
    3. Take his luxuries.
    4. Take any Wonders if he has any yet.
    5. Get a good view of his land - secure any area(s) that have the iron resource or luxuries.

    BTW - Do you know Writing yet? Create Embassy with and get Right of Passage with the Arabians to make them Polite. Maybe even give them 10 or more Gold as one time gift. But, if none of you know Writing, you should not have to worry too much about Arabia. Most likely, they know that you have the military advantage and will probably declare on the Persians after you sack a few of the Persian cities - they can smell the blood in the water and will often join in the rape and pilliage in order to increase their own territory.
     
  5. al_thor

    al_thor Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2003
    Messages:
    595
    Location:
    Wisconsin, USA
    If he is ahead of you in Tech, it would probably be best to sue him for peace when he has at least 2 or 3 cities left. You can then demand ALL if not most of his Tech which you can use to trade with other Civ's for their Techs. If you hurt him bad enough, you can also demand that he give you a city (usually only will give small cities). But, like I said, take his prime cities and use settlers to grab even more land. He will give you his very soul at that point (and you should gladly accept it!)
     
  6. al_thor

    al_thor Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    595
    Location:
    Wisconsin, USA
    If, as you enter his domain for war, you discover that he does have Iron, and it is hooked up with a road, you should get a Spearman or 2 onto that tile and Pilliage the Improvement, cutting off his supply. Because even if he does not know Iron Working when you start the war, you can bet that he is studying it VERY HARD. No one knows more than he that his Immortals will be a great boon to the aggressive expansion of his empire.
     
  7. al_thor

    al_thor Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2003
    Messages:
    595
    Location:
    Wisconsin, USA
    Remember, when looking for Iron deposits on his territory (or any territory) use Ctl-Shift-M to "clean up map". This will give you a clear view of the land without all of the "improvements" (roads, cities, etc). The Iron might be hiding right underneath one of his cities, but you would never see it. Use Ctl-Shift-M to return to "normal" mode.
     
  8. yoshi74

    yoshi74 Tourist from Mars

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2004
    Messages:
    1,197
    Location:
    Halle/Germany
    A lot of advices to strike, and it is the best you can get.
    However when you don't want this, try to establish better relations.
    Install embassies with your neigbors and trade often. Maybe even give them some gold if you can afford it.
    I (and several other on this board before be) played once a no military game. Common experience was: These extortions stop at a certain point. Give in it, and try to be a good friend. They will learn to behave like civilized civilizations ;).

    But i don't want to lure you into a false safety. If your bigger and/or advanced to your neigbors, they may attack you still sometimes. They will like you still, and its really nothing personal, but well, they got bigger plans and your in their way, unfortunately.

    So, while keeping a good relation, build a sizable military. And even when intenting defence, build enough (at least 50%) offensive units. No one knows when Xerses decides the world isn't big enough for bot of you. Good luck!
     
  9. Cleosith

    Cleosith Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2004
    Messages:
    6
    I cant thank you all enough for the great advice. This definitely helps shed more light on the way the AI evaluates the game.

    I should mention to clarify some confusions that I am playing on Warlord level and I am playing Civ 3 Gold Edition. I didnt want to buy Conquests until I had at least won a game with a civ.

    Cleo
     
  10. Mr Funkypants

    Mr Funkypants Wo Bist Du?

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    100
    Location:
    North-Central Belgium
    Another good idea is to do something like: tick the weaker enemy or the enemy you are angrier at so that they decide to wage war, then encourage the other civ to help you out in fighting a "common" enemy. If planned out right, you get extra cities and a better trade relation with one of your neighbors. Try it if you like it. Yay! I get personal title now!
     
  11. Illusion13

    Illusion13 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2003
    Messages:
    671
    Location:
    Burnaby, Canada
    IMHO, you can get through games with out fighting wars... Tribute the Persians once in a while to keep them happy. Strategically place your cities so you can flip their cities (if you have high cultures...) Build build and build cities.

    Actually, during my best game, it was because I DIDNT have access to luxuries. The only way to keep happy was to built settlers. So, you get my point? good. bye bye :)
     

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