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Beginning on Emperor moving up to Immortal

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Gasp, Oct 11, 2017.

  1. Gasp

    Gasp Chieftain

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    Thanks for checking Gumbolt.

    For Kufah we decided here that we don't need these fur soon. We now have a religion and Monarchy is going to be for trade in the next turns. I have MC to trade for it so I'm not concerned by happiness. I'll build a few warriors once I have Monarchy.
    I agree with this Corn location, I'll sit on it. I could use a city in between Kufah and Basra just to avoid Willie to settle here perhaps where my axe is on that hill. What do you think how useful this is?

    I don't plan to rush now and i don't know how is that even possible? I'll scout Mayans very soon. Diplomacy with Pascal depends very much on my future war plans. Willie is for sure an easy target but I have good relationship with him and Cyrus. Attacking one will damage that. Not sure if it is wise to turn against my judaist brothers when my eastern neighbors are more dangerous. Pascal is more far and will be tougher... not sure with what units I should attack here. Cats+axe/swords can be built soon but I won't have a military advantage so I should aim for better I guess.

    Hence I'm not sure where to go. Could be that researching Math was a mistake and I should have researched Construction instead.
    Mecca's fisrt GS will build an Academy. So no bulb for a while. I could maybe go towards CoL and CS then switch to Caste and Bureau. This should be a helpful boost with so many extra food. I could bulb Machinery and research Guilds when I'm there.

    I'd like to read some strategy plans here because I need some ideas ;)
     
  2. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Good point on trading for monarchy. Which Toku already has and would trade at pleased! Getting Toku to pleased here would resolve a lot of happiness issues here if he will trade monarchy. Seems almost impossible at present.

    I would still complete maths at this stage. Good trading chip. Leads to calendar which could help. Currency/calendar long term.

    Ducth still only have 3 cities. Their capital would make a great bureau capital. However war also feels wrong due to your economy. Early rushes normally involve 3-4 cities in a break out situation which you don't have here. You already have 7 cities. If you build the filler city this could crush your economy. A pure axe rush here could be expensive. Your cities are struggling for happiness here. Ducth have copper and horse.

    So capital focus. It could run 7-9 cottageable tiles. If you include river plains tiles. At present it has 1 cottage.
    Basra could run 2 cottages on those grassland rivers. (Basra growth here is a big issue. Plus no cottages to run.)
    Medina can run the grassland river tile as a cottage too. Albeit it leave the capital running hammer tiles in short term. Long term you could move it?

    You do have alphabet. Some research in your capital could not hurt here to push science while you build some cottages? It can run all the big production tiles for 15 research a turn.That or a 3 turn worker. 2x food resource and 2x copper. Not a bad option given at happiness cap.

    You have 5 workers for 7 cities. With a compact empire that could be good. Not so great here. Increase this by 2-3 more. Once you have maths consider whipping/chopping some more workers. Slow build in Damasacus at size 4? As above for your capital.

    Early forges here do little for you. You have no gold, silver or gems for happiness. Your empire is not screaming for production here. The barracks too were a mistake.

    So your best bet now could be focusing on the economy. Get some cottages up on the best tiles such as flood plains. Get a granary and monument up in Kufah and start some cottages here. Same for Basra. It needs that sheep asap. use chops for basra. Ttry to trade for monarchy. Once happiness improves grow cities. Calendar or currency after maths.

    Try to run 2 scientists somewhere long term for a GS. Not 100% sure on academy.

    Forget the filler city.
     
    Gasp likes this.
  3. Gasp

    Gasp Chieftain

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    Another session in 2 times until T99.
    Spoiler To T93 :

    T82
    Baghdad does a Madrassa until size 4
    Mecca, Medina and Damascus do Research
    Give Pig to Pascal
    T83
    Mecca does a worker

    T86
    Have Math this turn
    Worker is out in Mecca and cottage around
    a worker starts 1 chop for Kufah
    Mecca does Research
    Damascus does a worker (5T)
    T87
    Research set to Construction (at 0% now) (mistake)
    Mecca runs 2 scientists
    Baghdad whips a Granary
    T88
    Research set to Currency… (at 0% now)
    Cyrus has Monarchy for trade. I give him MC for it. Switch to HR
    Kufah whips a Monument and get a chop
    Damas whips a worker
    Mecca and Medina work max food for growth and do a warrior

    T91
    We meet Huayna Capac

    I’m doing a few warriors for happiness then I’ll do research to push Currency. I also want another worker very soon.
    We improved a lot our economy since we're able to grow cities bigger. With time it's going to pay. Pigs and sheep are going to be workable very soon to improve our last 2 cities.
    Spoiler Arabians land :
    Capture d’écran 2017-11-07 à 21.36.11.png

    Spoiler stats and techs :
    Capture d’écran 2017-11-07 à 21.34.55.png Capture d’écran 2017-11-07 à 21.38.20.png



    Spoiler to T99 :

    I didn't keep track of everything these last turns but mainly I built warriors and research, my workers improve a lot of cottageable tiles, chop when needed. You can see the difference through the Stats screen.
    Spoiler Land at T99 :
    Capture d’écran 2017-11-08 à 11.05.25.png

    Spoiler Stats & Techs :
    Capture d’écran 2017-11-08 à 11.07.18 1.png Capture d’écran 2017-11-08 à 11.06.43.png


    If everything goes on like this I have a GS in 5 turns. We have to find a use for him.
    We do 125 bpt at 100% now. We got Currency last turn. Gumbolt suggested Currency or Calendar so I could now go with Calendar. Not sure if it's worth researching it now or wait for a trade?
    I'm rather thinking to get CoL in like 5T then bulb Philo with my GS. And then beeline Guilds for my UU maybe.
    Is that a good plan?
     

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    Last edited: Nov 8, 2017
  4. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Are you planning to attack Willem any time soon? If not begging his 90 gold looks good. Halves calendar time. 30 gold for priesthood from Incans looks good too. Use your techs for gold here. A beg from persians for gold would be nice at some point. 10G is not enough.

    I would of preferred Damascus for scientists albeit I can see how the GP points make this less appealing. A great priest would not of helped. An academy will currently provide you 15 science a turn in your capital. A second great person from Damascus would not hurt for a golden age.

    Kufah needs to be building pasture on the pigs. Food for growth is important. Kufah warrior could return back to capital.

    Now you have currency cities should be running wealth. 5-6 turns for calendar.

    Your capital needs to grow to reach happiness cap. Then run all those cottages. It gains 25% from your madras.

    Start thinking about how to prepare your calendar resources too. Roads etc.

    Too tired to really put too much thought into this game. Need to think what direction you are taking here.
     
  5. Gasp

    Gasp Chieftain

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    Thank you Gumbolt for your answer

    Oups I realize I never sent what I wrote a few days ago!

    Begging for gold is a good tip I should use more often. So I will try do it when I can for the next turns. I take you advice for the Academy in Mecca also. And I'll try to grow many cottages to boost research.

    I want to have a military advantage here. I thought that adopting buddhism to befriend Pascal and attack Willem seems like a fun option. If my "status" remains the same Pascal and Sury will attack me at some point. I'm their worst enemy and I don't like that. Now Pascal could be bribed to join in and become friendly. He'll be a good trading partner and won't take any cities. I expect Sury to be at least Pleased, worse case scenario he will eventually address a DOW to me. Could I have enough units to counter his stack when he attacks. Maybe I'll have to cease fire with Willem? All depends on when I have my army ready.

    Calendar yes. Aim for CS after?
    Not sure here what tech path to take with this plan? I need a military tech I think.
     
  6. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Religion is a double edged sword. Adopting a religion normally upsets 2-3 AI and pleases 2-3 others. At present I would worry about the neighbours. if any other Ai goes fist mode it will be a long time off.

    For an attack this late you would want pults. Willem could be on way to fuedalism. Pends what tech path he chooses. pults and axes vs lb would not be ideal.

    Maybe a traditional cuirs rush here. Too late for most rushes. You lack roads to get 1mp units quickly to Willem.

    Cal/col then CS. This leads to edu bulb path. Ai will tech fued for you.
     
  7. Gasp

    Gasp Chieftain

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    I was thinking that catapults won't be enough. And I liked my plan to switch religion so I did it and played until T150... in 2 times (to T125 then 150).
    CoL and CS seem nice to research as you said for edu bulb path. Another path I had in mind was Guild for my UU. One problem with CA is that we need archery and especially HBR which AIs won't trade easily.

    I planned a CA rush on Willem knowing my neighbors will have Feuda anyway by the time I can attack. It went ok. Researched Machinery after Calendar to beeline Guilds. On T125 I can build my CA army with whips and chops.
    What I did is take advantage of Persia and Dutch being pleased to trade and get gold. Then I switched to Buddhism and did the same with Pascal and Sury.
    I attacked Willem on with something like 10 CA (a bit more maybe). I took his northern cities and Utrecht right away. Then I went south to finish him off.
    His last city was in the middle of Cyrus empire. I took it on T149 and destroyed him. My plan is to give it to Cyrus to avoid war at the moment.
    During the attack Willem peace vassaled to Sury... Oh man! So much for getting him to Friendly... I was close to succeed. Fortunately i could bribe Pascal to declare on him (which makes me safe from any attack east).

    Now I let you see my game. I had used the whip a lot (even in Mecca). And did the strict minimum with city management during war time. And haven't corrected anything before this post. So I guess you'll find many mistakes I did. Also I have to catch up with trades of techs and resources (and gold).

    Spoiler This was on T125 :

    *Note that this save is called t125 guilds because I did another game in parallel going for CoL and bulbing Philo
    Capture d’écran 2017-11-15 à 14.12.53.png Capture d’écran 2017-11-15 à 14.12.35.png Capture d’écran 2017-11-15 à 14.12.31.png Capture d’écran 2017-11-15 à 14.12.22.png

    Spoiler This is T149 :
    Capture d’écran 2017-11-15 à 14.32.00 1.png Capture d’écran 2017-11-15 à 14.32.50.png Capture d’écran 2017-11-15 à 14.32.58.png Capture d’écran 2017-11-15 à 14.33.04.png
     

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  8. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Not a big fan of what you have done here. If you wanted guilds you needed to beeline this.

    CA are okay but unlike cuirs they are not gunpowder units. So when they see 100% castle defences they receive no discount. Where cuirs ignore castles and walls. Put a pikemen in a city with a castle and your Camel Archers odds will be horrible.

    You need to be using great people. At present you are likely to get a great priest. To bulb edu and lib you would need 3 great scientists. No cities running scientists. Time for caste and spamming scientists. You need 3 GS here. Damascus might as well run a few anyway to help for golden age.

    I think a Cuirs rush is still possible but ultimately you are many turns away from this. Phil, edu, nationalism and Lib for free MT.

    You don't need to leave a CA in every city. Only put defenders where needed.If cities are happy leave undefended.

    Persians have 11 GPT for trade. Incans 10GPT. Toku 6 GPT and Pascal 5 GPT? Why are you not trading resources for gold? Thats 33 GPT. Wow.
     
  9. elitetroops

    elitetroops Chieftain

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    Oh, nice, CA-rush. :) But looks like all AI have Engineering now. Pikes and Castles are pretty much the end for Knights.

    Looks like the AI is slow this game, you shouldn't have any problems winning lib. Planning for MT?

    They have 32 gpt available for trade. All of that should be heading your way, should have been a long time ago. As soon as you get currency your aim should be to constantly trade for all available gpt. Deals can be renegotiated every 10 turns, as they get more available gold for trade. You should also try to get hold of someone's map. Need more info about the world.

    (Simultaneous x-post with Gumby :D)
     
  10. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Timing to perfection!!! Similar thoughts too. :D
     
  11. Fippy

    Fippy Phoenix

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    Could also trade for Engi from Cyrus, and add some Trebs to those CA stacks ;)
    Would be fine for taking down Cyrus step by step.

    Trading indeed looks like a weak point for you, since AIs get bonuses anyways you should always think "me first, dun care about their gains".
    Those gold per turn resi deals are much too good, and would help you greatly.

    Another weak point seems to be unit control, all those warriors, axes, spears, archers lol..combined you pay 31gpt for them.

    Trading makes all the difference between peoples who are fine with playing Imm (easy) and deity (harder), your slider should be 100% for at least 10 turns now (set such goals for yourself), and to make that happen look what you can do for gold.
    Besides selling those resis, how about the old Theo tech to Cyrus for maps and his gold?
    Then you could continue re-selling his maps maybe.
    Philo tech still offers much value here, only HC has it. Needed for Lib and / or Nationalism, could turn it back into gold probably too.
     
  12. elmurcis

    elmurcis Chieftain

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    Map buy up - sell to other actions is only real source of gold from AI in NTT games outside GM missions :D Resource sell and failgold like usual, ofcourse :D
     
  13. Gasp

    Gasp Chieftain

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    Hehe I was expecting these comments on lack of trade. For my defense I should mention that the only resources I could trade for gold a few turns ago were calendar ones and I needed them. Now it's a different story indeed I'll get these 32 (or 33) gpt!

    @elitetroops CA rush was fun and effective :D
    My CA are pretty much obsolete now. I left them in cities just to be around in case Cyrus would DOW me. The idea was to use them on Willie. Perhaps they are still enough to take out Cyrus with Trebs as Fippy mentioned. Cyrus has good relationships with everybody though and another war now means teching slowly.

    A plan is to switch to Caste and Pacifism as soon as I can get Philo and run a lot of GS to prepare a Cuir rush.
    So I switch to Caste System, run scientists where I can. Shall I also run Merchants ? and where ?
    I'm going to research Philo first I think. Then Nationalism. And bulb (at least partially) Edu to get to Lib faster. I didn't check but if I'm right I'll have a GS in Mecca very soon for that. I'm not sure how it works to bulb Lib. I may need Printing press first.
     
  14. Gasp

    Gasp Chieftain

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    Hello everyone,

    I'm sorry for the lack of updates. I didn't have much time for Civ these last weeks and I have to confess that Saladin game is a lot of work I was reluctant to play it.
    But here I am with an update going until 1000 AD, on my way to MT.
    I played in 2 times:
    Spoiler Firstly to T153 with notes :

    T149
    Gift city of Deft to Cyrus and take 11 :gold: per turn for Wine
    I trade 10 Gpt for Silk to HC
    5 Gpt for Wheat and 7 Gpt for Dye to Pascal
    6 gpt for Silk to Toku
    That’s 39 GPT total I get
    Trade Cyrus’ map + 60 :gold: for Theology
    Re-sell World map to Everyone for 60 :gold: in total
    Switch research to Philo (3T)

    I won’t attack Cyrus yet as he’s now Pleased towards me. This makes me safe for a while I guess.
    HC is in Free Religion, let’s hope he doesn’t have Lib yet and only Shwedagon

    T150
    Get Philo vs Paper and some gold from HC (Cyrus has it too)
    Set research to Edu
    Switch civics to Caste + Pacifism
    Run artist in some new cities for border pop
    Run GS where I can. I’ll have one T152 in Mecca

    T151
    Sell MC to Toku for his 30 gold

    T152
    Bulb Edu and get it this turn
    I don’t really know what to do with my army now… It’s costly for nothing.

    T153
    Research set to Lib (5T)
    Sell CoL to Toku for 40 gold
    Trade Paper to Cyrus for 90 gold + map + Aesthetics
    Sell Paper to Pascal for 55 gold (he was 1T away)
    Spoiler Here are the usual screens (techs, trades...) :
    Capture d’écran 2017-12-07 à 10.30.36.png Capture d’écran 2017-12-07 à 10.30.51.png Capture d’écran 2017-12-07 à 10.31.01.png Capture d’écran 2017-12-07 à 10.31.05.png



    Spoiler Then to T160 - 1000 AD :

    I just wanted to play some extra turns for fun but it turned well (I think) so I saved.
    During these turns my main goal was to keep the slider to 100%. I did a lot of trading. Mainly I was selling old techs to Toku for his gold because he's far behind. Trading some techs with AI when I needed money to research further.
    I got Lib on T157 and chose Nationalism as a free tech. Then I finished Gunpowder on T159. Now we're on our way to MT which could be finished in 6T assuming I can keep on researching at that pace. I have now 400 gold and spend 156 per turn. It'll be tough not to go down at 0% for some time.
    I ceased fire with Sury as soon as I could (t155 I think) to be able to sell him techs and get his Gpt for res.
    Spoiler Here are the usual screens (techs, trades...) :
    Capture d’écran 2017-12-07 à 10.24.32.png Capture d’écran 2017-12-07 à 10.24.40.png Capture d’écran 2017-12-07 à 10.24.51.png Capture d’écran 2017-12-07 à 10.24.55.png



    I'm still with Caste + Pacifism. Still running a few GS where I can and a few Merchants as well. I'm not convinced this is the right way to go. Shall I abuse of GS, run as many as I can, even if that means starving some cities? Or should I give up GS and do GM now? Or is it rather time to adopt a different strategy?
    I'd like some advices on this as well as how do you think I should proceed in future turns please.

    Another thing. I'm paying 54 gpt for unit cost (this is a shame), of course Pacifism is not helping here. How to solve this problem?
     

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  15. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    If you get a GP a Jud shrine looks good. A great merchant to upgrade your units might of been better.

    Farms will be key now to help regrow your cities once you whip. That and chopping forest to speed up cuirs. If your power was higher maybe Mayans may have offered themselves as vassels. I don't fancy their chances against Sury.

    Engineering for lib and 120 gold looks good. You will want this tech to speed up your cuirs.

    Basra would be better off running the mines as this is more gold then 2 merchants.
    Scrap CH Najran. Use mines instead specialists in most cities as you are not going for great people now apart from Damascus.

    Once you get MT whip Cuirs and upgrade CA everywhere. CA can be used as mop up units initially. If you have not got a medic unit try to create one. Scout normally works well for this. Even a warrior with 2mp might work.
     
  16. bdubbs

    bdubbs Chieftain

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    Man I checked out the beginning of this thread yesterday as I'm inexperienced to emp as well. Loaded up your first Incan map, 3 corn start seemed like it would be a fun confidence building easy win and man was I wrong.
    Spoiler :
    Ended up losing those horses to Charly in the early going which ruined my HA attack plan, settled city 3 too quick which slowed down pottery. Picked buddhism to go pleased with Charly and China, joined the war on the hindu French. A few turns later Greece goes Hindu and China flips hindu and DOWs me. Might reload it later and get some quecha rush revenge
     
  17. Gasp

    Gasp Chieftain

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    @bdubbs You're actually right about the start. I guess something went wrong for you as it did for me :lol: I didn't find the motivation to finish this game but the start was ok in my first attempt. Now with a little more experience I believe I could do better. But I'm not sure if a early rush is optimal here as you have plenty of good land to settle, greeks are weak and Charly is a good buffer to slow down French expansion. Of course these horses make a big difference. Try to follow - if you didn't already - advices that were given to me on how to start, what to chop and what tiles to improve ;)
    Happy you found some interest in this thread!

    @Gumbolt Thanks for your advices. I was a little confused how to manage my cities. So farms for growth, mines instead of specialists and chops for Cuir rush preparation.
    I'm going to get Engineering from Pascal. He may still peace vassal to me once I start building Cuirs. Which I'd gladly take. I also think his chances to win against Sury are low.

    My first thought is to attack Cyrus as he's close to me, therefore I don't waste turns moving troops. He's directly next to HC whom I definitely want to weaken as he's teching fast and will have Grenadiers... But Cyrus might be trouble. Many of his biggest cities are on a hill and without Trebs I'll suffer. So I guess I need Trebs to attack Cyrus.
    On the other hand Sury is a good target as well. I believe him to be weaker than Cyrus. He's a neighbor to the very weak Toku. So maybe the war will be easier there, giving me a lot of land and an opportunity to reach Rifling faster. I could take a break with the war and tech further before I attack HC and Cyrus.

    What do you think of the military situation? Shall I start building Trebs now to add to my Cuirs army and DOW Cyrus first?

    EDIT: another thing. What about building some Forges? I didn't plan it but it could be useful.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2017 at 4:40 AM
  18. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Farms for when you start whipping. Cottages up till then with mines. Yes take down the tech monsters. Little risk from pascal. Sury is too far off. Stick to direct neighbours for now.

    No to any trebs. 100% cuirs. Cuirs ignore castles and walls. Trebs do not. Would take forever to do anything useful with trebs. Really not needed. You can put hammers into CA now and these should convert into cuirs hammers. Wait till you are close to MT first.

    Yeah Pascal won't last too long against Sury. Least it keeps them busy.
     
  19. Gasp

    Gasp Chieftain

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    Alright only Cuirs then and Cyrus as a target.

    I played 2 more turns and Pascal lost a city to Sury... But I got plenty of cash from trade (failgold from University of Sankore Cyrus just built)

    I have a question regarding civics. I have to switch to Theo + Slavery that's a sure thing. I could also adopt Vassalage or Nationhood. I don't need to draft but the +2 :) is always welcome. Or I could stay with Bureaucracy in which case Utrecht could become my capitol. What do you think ?
    And I can trade for Banking + Economics (in 2T from Pascal). Shall I wait for Eco and also switch to Free Market ?

    Spoiler In fact here is a mini update to T165 :

    T160
    Get Engineering + 120 gold from Pascal against Lib
    Stop running specialists except for Damascus (+1 Merch and 2T left)

    T161
    I continue chopine forest and prepare farms
    Remove 1 GM from Damascus. I have a GP next turn
    Pascal lose Uxmal to Sury… not good.

    T162
    Lucky me have a GM in Damascus (I have to confess something here for those digging into statistics and seing a GPro built: I get a GM then I try to save the game and for some reason it exits to the main menu... So I restart from an autosave and it never gave me another GM but a GPro. instead. Therefore I edited in worldbuilder to correct that painful error). I send him to Persepolis (size 18)
    Both HC and Sury have some 500 gold for trade. So I give Lib to HC for 500 gold and Edu to Sury for 540 gold. That’s sweet. HC is now Friendly
    I sell Guilds to Toku for 140 gold
    Still pre-chop a lot
    I have now 1446 :gold: so I start building CAs where they take more than 4T (time to get MT)

    T163 & 164 & 165
    Do some more pre-chop / farm preparation
    I have MT end of this turn.


    Spoiler Do I trade for this gold before war? :
    Capture d’écran 2017-12-11 à 13.10.26.png

    Spoiler Cyrus and HC's lands :

    Where do I start attacking? I think either directly for Pasargardae then Persepolis or his western side: Dariush, Gordium, Ergili+Deft then Persepolis or Pasargardae.
    Capture d’écran 2017-12-11 à 13.12.34.png

    I want to attack HC from the north and aim directly for Cuzco.
    Capture d’écran 2017-12-11 à 13.12.44.png My plan is to vassal them ASAP rather than destroy them completely. I'd like to be as fast as possible to keep my military advantage.


    I realize that I should switch to Judaism if I want to benefit from the Theocracy bonus... I still hope that Pascal will peace vassal to me when I have an army or before I can switch to Judaism which is not before turn 170 I believe.
    Next turn my GM reach Persepolis for a trade mission. with that gold I will upgrade all my CAs into Cuirs. I could try to aim for the ToA city, Cuzco. But I think it wont give me more cash than Persepolis because Cuzco is only size 12.
     

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    Last edited: Dec 11, 2017 at 7:41 AM

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