Level up: Emperor & Immortal with 4 games

Over the years here at CFC I've learned a lot of useful things from playing SGOTMs. One of them is that @Gumbolt is an expert at expecting the worst and painting devils on the wall. ;) It's archers in cities with low cultural defenses and mostly not on hills. HAs will slaughter them. In Oporto, even if the 5th archer is whipped, the expectation is that 7 HAs will win. Bad RNG luck is required not to take it, not the other way around. Of course, I would prefer to have 8 HAs in place to attack, but if not, then just go for it and clean up next turn if someone is left alive. You have fresh HAs coming in to do that part if necessary.

I don't see any problem with mids in Lisbon. It's only 5 roads needed. No need to worry about Monarchy if you get the mids. You'll definitely want those roads anyway. Looking at the AI in this game, there's really not much competition for the mids. Oracle this late is a bit risky. You now have advance knowledge from your previous attempts that might influence your decision here... Without such knowledge, hmm.. Espionage screen tells you Gandhi isn't building it yet in Delhi. I don't see how anyone else from this bunch would be working on it this early. Stonehenge and Great Wall were also super late. I think I'd go for it. That would mean masonry next. Or actually myst, since you'd want that by the time Lisbon is out of revolt.

Happiness will be an issue until you get mids. Whip monument in Lisbon seems like a good idea indeed. Immediately when out of revolt, one turn hammers into it, next turn whip. And try to get those roads up in time for border pop. Other cities will have to build workers/settlers or be assigned more hammers than food for a while to avoid great unhappiness. Probably ease up with the whip now when the HAs are out. I'd avoid Hindu for a while still. See a bit how the religious situation develops.
 
The main issue with mids is time. 8-9 turns to settle on Stone. Hamburg should be running the cows not the rice. 7h vs 6h production. 6 turns vs 7 turns for settler.
Masonry required but no real delay. Delay stone city till you are sure mids is in the bag and you are ready to start building it.
Border pops in lisbon? Chops outside BFC get less hammers.
500 hammers is a big investmesnt and with Lisbon would require 7-8+ forest chops. Lisbon lacks hammers and food for growth. You should be looking to grab as many workers as possible. Your capital would have better production but less hammers to build it.

It's all about planning and flexibility should another Ai grab mids. So roads, techs, city micro and other things. You could even delay masonry till you are 2-3 turns from being ready.

Oh I took the city with no losses before I posted. That is not to say the OP will get the same luck. I stated odds were over 66%.

Oh if you expect the worst you are always pleased when things go well. :D
 
Over the years here at CFC I've learned a lot of useful things from playing SGOTMs. One of them is that @Gumbolt is an expert at expecting the worst and painting devils on the wall. ;)
:lmao: I tend to agree with that. Only because of my knowledge of the situation.

Myst first sounds good to me. I'll need a border pop in Lisbon to chop the Mids and get Ivory. So I'm going to research it next.
Masonry will most likely follow so I can start building the Mids there.
Then it'd be great to see someone with Alpha so I can trade it against Math and then get Mediation or Poly and PH for the Oracle.

I don't really see a reason to adopt Hindu right now so I'll wait. I get what you say Gumbolt with getting ready for the Mids. Delaying Masonry is a good option. Shall I research Poly/Medi instead or just turn off slider?

Oh if you expect the worst you are always pleased when things go well. :D
Indeed :D
 
I wouldn't go for both wonders. You don't learn the game by spamming wonders. If you get mids the oracle won't matter. Also you have to consider GP dilution. You really don't want a great priest here. You need a clean GP pool somewhere. GE can be okay. With a double scientist somewhere it normally stops the great engineer.

Also you will need workers for Lisbon and gap road for the stone. Focus on one to make sure you get it. You are already very late for Oracle.

See what happens. I guess.
 
You don't learn the game by spamming wonders
Not a lot of time to dig into the game, but I thought it might be worth it to highlight that a bit ;)

Edit - It's not only about learning not to spam wonders, but it's about getting comfortable with the idea that you can't have everything. On higher difficulty levels (on deity mostly) you often have to beeline stuff and ignore a lot of other appealing stuff. E.g. in most cases you can't get HA rush + Mids or Oracle, no Cuirs+Taj etc. you get the idea..
 
Some news.

Played till T92

War against Joao finished T88 when he got slaughtered by my HAs.
I took Oporto in 2 turns because one Archer survived (and he built another one the next turn...). Then I moved with a few HAs to Guimaraes and took it with some luck after enough units arrived which gave some time for other to heal a bit. After that 4 of them moved to Coimbra on the West coast. this city was highly defended by 2 unpromoted scary Archers... it fell. And Finally I went on to Evora (Copper city) to find out that he had improved the copper tile but could not build any spear. I took my time before attacking here because many of my HAs were seriously injured but I eventually killed his 3 Archers and destroyed the Portuguese civ at the same time. I lost 7 HAs in total (including 1 that got attacked by a chariot).
Spoiler :
Capture d’écran 2017-10-24 à 00.37.44.png

After that I did what I said so whip a Monument in Lisbon, road all ex-Portuguese empire and start chopping around.
I researched Myst then Masonry in order to start the Mids in Lisbon as planned. The same turn I got Masonry I settled beautiful Cologne city on the Stone.
I teched Poly to aim for the Oracle. After what Vicky discovered Alpha. I traded with her directly to get Alpha+Med against HBR + Math (that sounds very unfair).
Then I teched PH because only Ganghi got it and was not willing to trade of course.
The Mids in Lisbon are 8T away and will get another 2 chop soon. I'm pretty confident I'll have them.
The Marble was improved that same turn and Oporto started to build the Oracle. I chop here and there and T92 I'm 1T before completion (some suspense finally). Which free tech do I take? MC, Currency (as planned), CoL or else?
Spoiler :
Capture d’écran 2017-10-24 à 00.47.49.png

In between I neglected micromanagement and grew into some unhappiness. Nothing too bad I think but I don't need this. I still have to road the Elephants though. I need more workers and more :commerce: because at 0% I'm making 3 gpt...
It looks like I'm the tech leader here because they could trade Fishing or Monotheism only. I'm wondering what they do.
i should mention I refused to close borders with Gandhi and Vicky when respectively Ragnar and Peter asked.

On the other side of my empire a HA is exploring Gandhi's beautiful land and I like what I see... only Archers to defend so far.
I have 9 HAs in Hamburg. What's going to happen?
note: Ganghi just got a GS (in Bombay) and therefore won't build a Shrine soon. it's a pity.
Spoiler :
Capture d’écran 2017-10-24 à 00.47.37 1.png


Edit: I really have to use my EP on someone here. Let's say Ragnar
 

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While I agree that you don't learn the game by spamming wonders, I think Oracle and mids are still quite okay. Normally they would be built completely different times, so it's not really an either/or choice. In case of the mids, the worst that can happen is that you get a bunch of failgold, which isn't necessarily a bad thing either. With one more chop they are done in 3 turns, then you should immediately switch to Representation imo. Later you can go Police State, once you reached the desired military tech to stomp the rest of the world.

I'd pick Currency with Oracle. Hopefully someone else was also building Oracle already, then you can trade for their failgold. The turn after completing mids you should also check trade screen for potential AI failgold.

Trading HBR to Vicky was a bit risky. You don't know what she has, only that she's probably the next target in line after Gandhi. If she has elephants and gets construction by the time you get there, you can at least forget about going after her with HAs. By trading for med you also made the Engineering bulb harder. However, I honestly wouldn't care about Engineering bulb here. Calendar is more important for happiness resources. Trade for fishing and next turn for sailing, then probably selftech Calendar. In a way, I think the best exercise here would be to still take out Gandhi, then try to get your economy back on track. Gandhi needs to go down before he hooks up the iron. Could have scouted him a bit better. He has 5 cities, but you only see 2. Who has the copper N of Delhi? If Gandhi, then you'd want some HA to attack from that direction to pillage it asap.

Worker management:
-Teaming up workers to build improvements on flatland is good, but DON'T do this when chopping forests. Every time a worker moves into a forest, it costs one worker turn. 2 workers can chop 2 forests in 4 turns if they chop different forests, but it takes them 5 turns if they work in pairs. Keep this in mind also when building roads and other stuff. Avoid teaming up workers on unroaded hills/forests.
-Forgetting to road the ivory is bad, but you noticed it already...
-Roading desert takes one turn more than roading plains/grassland. Road from Berlin to Oporto crosses 3 desert tiles, when none of those roads are needed. Roading north of the desert would be much better, especially as you will need a road on the spices soon. In general, consider worker turns an important resource and try to not waste them.
 
I agree that one GPro could be annoying here. But not that bad if I can use him to build a Shrine in Delhi no? Or else bulbing CoL

So I'm going to get Fishing this turn and Sailing the next turn. Then research Calendar to improve some of my happy resources.

Who has the copper N of Delhi? If Gandhi, then you'd want some HA to attack from that direction to pillage it asap.
This is the plan. I'll send another couple HA scouting Gandhi toward that Copper tile and hopefully I could station them outside his culture but close enough to pillage it the turn after I DOW. His Iron is not improved, he as a Cottage on it so I'm not worried about that.

I think I'll DOW on Gandhi in 2-3 turns. In fact as soon as my HAs scouted enough. I'll have 12 HA by then to attack and hopefully take Delhi then next turn. Then I'll move with 5 HA north to take a city I know he has next to that Iron (his 2nd city I think) and the other city north I can see and some other HAs either toward a Copper city or south near Horses as I'm sure he has one there. If he doesn't build many units suddenly (I don't think he'll because he's spamming Missionaries) reducing him to only 1-2 cities should be easy.

Then my economy will suffer and cry. I'll have to use war gold to avoid strike for some turn until I can have happy cities working my new cottages.

One fact I didn't mention is that I have a GGeneral from war against Joao but didn't use it yet. I want a supermedic obviously. I have the habit of using a Chariot for that purpose. Shall I build one on just use it on another unit?

I'll play a few turns later today.
 
Building a chariot for use as super medic is a bit of a waste. If you're going to build a unit, build a scout.
 
Well it might be possible to roll this map over with HA. No one has more than 6 cities. Russians only 3. Getting feudalism will help to vassel AI. Even a 64% land grab seems possible here. So you could wipe out all but 2 Ai. Be sure to bribe Ragnar on someone.

When you attack the Indians you might lose all your foreign trade routes. So currency now looks good for the economy. I would of split up the stack for India. No way you will need 12 HA for Delhi. 2 prong attack could work here. Scout medic makes sense.

Rep is nice for happiness but only covers 5 largest cities.

I wonder if HA and feudalism could win this map? Maybe a few catapults too.

Consider settling the gems site for more happiness.

If the map has lots of jungle this will cripple the Ai badly. They can't handle jungle well.
 
I'm sure the map would be winnable with HAs alone. At the moment Gandhi is the only one who can even research monarchy, and he'll be dead long before feudalism. The other are all at least 3 techs away from longbows and don't seem in a hurry to get there. At least domination seems possible, if it can be finished by settling all the empty jungle area to the north. If it was a quest for fastest possible finish, then I'd do just that. Finish mids, go Police State, max HA production everywhere, probably still tech Calendar for more happiness to whip more heavily, otherwise slider could be at 0% until the end. That would be aiming for domination, assuming that not all AI would need to be attacked. If conquest, then teching some more would be better. Not sure if this is the best option for learning and moving up levels, though.

Rep only helps 5 cities, indeed, which is why I'd value Calendar quite highly here. Getting the bonus to 5 cities takes care of the immediate problems, and once other cities get big enough to start having problems, you should hopefully have some calendar resources already.
 
In which case Oracle should be delayed till fishing and sailing are traded for. Means a turn delay on oracle. Calendar will help with happiness. That and the road on ivory.

Not sure how much more this game will teach in terms of game play.
 
Played On a few turns.
I'm having doubt with my civic change now that I have the Mids. I don't have time to write anything regarding your developments. We'll see later :D
Spoiler To T96 :

T92
Coimbra does a Warrior
Get Fishing against PH from Peter
Move 3 HAs into Gandhi's aiming for that Copper
Berlin whip a HA (6 > 4)
T93
Oracle Currency
Pre chop 1 forest near Lisbon
Get Sailing and 80 :gold: for Alpha from Gandhi (I wonder if Mono + Sailing + 45 :gold: was better?)
Spoiler :
Capture d’écran 2017-10-24 à 18.18.49.png

Move HA next to Copper and see 2 Archers there
Spoiler :
Capture d’écran 2017-10-24 à 19.07.00 1.png

Berlin does a Scout for super medic
Hamburg does a HA (will 2 pop whip it)
Research set to Calendar (6T) slider to 100%
T94
Move my HAs to Gandhi's border
Move the 3 HAs on a PH next to the Copper
get a Scout super medic
Hamburg whip a HA
T95
Munich finished a HA and does another (happy cap at 5 growth in 3T so will whip here)
Hamburg has 1 :mad: for 3 more turns. Put OFH into a HA then will do a worker.
DoW on Gandhi
Take a slave with a new built HA in Hamburg
Move 1 HA 1E of Delhi and steal a worker
Gandhi has 1 spear there so I move all my 8 still injured HAs there
Pillage the Copper
Spoiler :
Capture d’écran 2017-10-24 à 19.38.35.png

T96

Guimaraes whip a Monument
Berlin stagnate while doing 1 GS
Munich whip 1 HA
Lisbon finished the Mids and whip a Barracks (4>2)

Civic Change???
War going on (not played that part yet)
 

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You need to be thinking about happiness resources. So chopping jungle/forest. Roads to the resources. The cottage near Oporta was very questionable. Will you really work that tile over the resource calendar brings in? The road to coimbra is not urgent. It's already on your trade network.

Berlin could use 2 mines to build HA this turn. Munich should probably grab the wheat next turn. If your whipping units you want 5-6 food resources.

I think rep civic next turn would be good. You have a lot of unhappiness that is slowing your city growth and ability to whip here. Once you get those 3 happiness resources online things will improve greatly. Rep happiness too. One turn delay allows for those 2 HA.

To whip cologne granary or not? I think so. Use of a mine at size 2 is slowing growth here. Granary will speed up growth greatly.

Barracks vs granary in Lisbon? I think the granary was more important. OF into granary. Granary should normally come ahead of any barracks.

Yes attack his capital. Should still take it. (I didn't get the wounded unit thing.)
 
Okay, now I'm confused... You're declaring with most of your stack wounded? And you had a great general standing around but no super medic? In that case you should definitely just had made any unit into a super medic a long time ago and all of the stack would be full strength by now.

Rushing to attack the next city with some wounded units in the middle of a war is one thing. In that case you are fighting an enemy who is building nothing but units and you don't want to give him time to build more. Now you rushed in with wounded units to declare against a guy who was mostly building missionaries. Delaying the war by one turn would likely not have changed anything, except that your army would be fully healed. He just finished a spear in Delhi, even if he started a new one he wouldn't be able to complete it when you pillage the copper.

I don't quite understand you troop movement here either. What's the plan with the stack outside Vijayanagara? Are you planning to attack Delhi this turn? Attack Vija next turn? In general, on every turn, you should always start by doing the moves which can make you change your mind about other moves. In this case the big question mark is the attack on Delhi. If you attack, how will it go and how does that influence your plans for next turn. Now you already moved the HAs in the north, so they can't react to anything happening with the battles in the south anymore. Their movement didn't help you decide anything regarding southern movement either, which is why they should have waited until all uncertain actions are done and you can decide based on the actual situation. And why are there 3 of them? 1 would have been enough to pillage copper, 3 is not quite enough to feel good about attacking the city (likely to get 3rd defender). Hence 1 would have been just as good for the job and the wounded HAs would have had time to heal instead.

How is it possible that your Super Medic is standing alone with full MP in enemy territory and no sight of any unit that would have guarded him between turns? That's a crazy and completely unnecessary risk. Gandhi has a city NW of iron and horses hooked up... He didn't heal anyone between turns and standing on that unroaded tile doesn't help him get anywhere any faster this turn. Wherever he is going, he would have got there just as fast if he spent between turns in Hamburg.
Move 1 HA 1E of Delhi and steal a worker
Gandhi has 1 spear there so I move all my 8 still injured HAs there
This was the opposite of how I suggested you handle spears. If he has a spear in the city, bait it out with one HA. Let's you fight it on flat land instead of behind the 60% cultural defenses. This would have been a pretty perfect situation for that. Grab worker with one HA on an unroaded tile outside his capital (and pillage copper in the north, of course). Get your super medic to Hamburg to fully heal all of your stack between turns, as he attacks your lone HA. He probably wins, but is left wounded on flat land and you should have very strong odds as your fully healed stack of HAs move in next turn.

Edit: Totally agree with Gumbolt on worker management. Cottage outside of Oporto is a waste. Non-riverside cottages anywhere in the world are quite useless, except in some cases they can be considered in capital. This game is not an example of such a case. Get ready to improve calendar resources instead.

Rep this turn, yes. And get back to working wheat in capital!

Edit 2: Sorry if I sound too critical, just pointing out whatever things I see that could be improved. So here's one more. :D Stack position 1W of Delhi is really bad. Not on a road and not in a position from where you can easily get to somewhere else when Delhi culture falls. (Okay, worker can finish the road in 1 turn, which it definitely should before you move any HAs away from there after Delhi has fallen.) Stack 1W from there would instead effectively be forking Delhi and the city NW of iron. From cultural pressure you know city 1NW of iron has gotten only one border pop, which means PH 3W of Delhi is free of Indian culture when Delhi falls and HAs 2W of Delhi could attack that other city the same turn. If you instead wanted to head with HAs to help attacking Vija, they can get there just as fast from 2W of Delhi as from 1W of Delhi. Attacking both on same turn would of course require a stack of healthy HAs.
 
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To be fair if you don't make mistakes you don't learn. For the average player this kind of micro of Elite's is way above standard play. Then again if you want to win on higher levels you need to have some amount of micro and thinking. Placement of stacks. Not moving the entire stack when you attack cities. Pillaging metal resources. Also enticing units out of cities. At this stage it matters less as you have nearly double the amount cities of the Ai here.

Agree with Elite. If the stack had not moved next to delhi you could of attacked both cities this turn. Use your 2mp movement advantage of HA. So start of this turn entire stack should of been 2 west of Delhi. Then you attack Delhi with one unit at a time. On my test game when the city fell I could of moved the remaining units to attack Patal. So 6-7 units to take capital. Freeing up 4-5 units for the iron city.

1 HA to pillage copper would of been fine. Combat wise always aim for 2-1 units when attacking cities. Especially if odds are below 30%. Always assume the AI will whip a unit a turn too.

Of course this would of been much easier with a super medic that healed your stack first. 1-2 turns. On a flipside sometimes keeping a slightly damage stack on the move and on the attack can help speed up wars. Assuming they are strong enough to take a city. In this instance there was no rush.

Another tip is to not automatically promote units. With most cities you often know the final few combats will be 90%+ odds. So you can sometimes use promotions to heal up units. Same can be applied for selecting units to attack. Using units who will reach xp 2/5/10 can really help when planning attacks.

The tip is to mix micro with fun play. You have not lost this war. You should still easily take out the Indians. Just need to get the basics right.
 
A bit OT (sorry) but I'm curious.. @elitetroops why don't you ever play on deity? I'm pretty sure you would win most games with this level of thinking.

@Gasp don't worry about my obsession for deity, if you read Elite's advice (and process it) you might post a thread named "beggining on deity in a not too distant future :) It does requires some "experience" aswell but everything goes pretty fast when you're comfortable with the basics - I've only ever won once on Emperor and 5-6 times on IMM (plus some early turns practice games ofc). A lot of knowledge does also come through watching YouTube LPs.
 
uhhh I really have a lot to read and process... and comment !

I say thank you for these info again. I make mistakes that's obvious and having people here to highlight them and give advice is the exact purpose of this topic!
I'll not comment everything you all said but I'm reading and saving this somewhere to hopefully remind it next time.

I've made stupid moves here. I'm particularly sad I ruined that opportunity to trap that spear in the process. Let's hope it's not going to affect too much my attacks.
I'm already way more careful with managing my cities but worker management is what I feel I need to make more efforts to improve.

So for now let's finish this T96 without forgetting any tip I was given here.
 
I played some more turns. Our military campaign went well and Gandhi is history now.
Spoiler end of T96 to T101 :

T96
Not sure if I should switch to rep this turn or finish 2 HAs and switch next turn as Gumbolt suggested so I'll attack before I decide.
Whip a Granary in Cologne
I take Delhi with 1 loss. Pretty sweet. But has only the Temple of Artemis built.
Spoiler :
Capture d’écran 2017-10-25 à 00.23.31 1.png

Capture d’écran 2017-10-25 à 00.24.51 1.png

The rest of my troops moves toward the copper city with the super medic.
Since I have too few strong units I'll wait 1T to have these 2 extra HAs before I adopt Rep.
Berlin works 2 mines to finish HA next turn.

T97

Revolts to slavery for Rep
Cologne is starting on a Lighthouse (No fast growth here and no many :hammers: so no Barracks?)
Munich does a Granary
Berlin starts on another HA
I pillage Horses to avoid chariot production
I take Vija city this turn losing 1 HA
One miss-click made me improve a Warrior into a spear...
My HAs next to Patali (Iron city) heal 1T

T98

He's not building units this turn...
I lose 1HA but take out his 2 Archers in Patali... and move one to next city north.

T99

Munich whips a Granary
I don't attack, this turn I gathered enough units to finish him I hope

T100

I take Bombay defended by 3 Archers and 1 Chariot with 3 unlucky loss.
now Varanasi on a hill and defended by 2 Archers and 1 axe vs. 6 HA: 2 die, 1 withdraw and 1 die with 97,3% haha. I won't take it this turn...
I get Calendar end of this turn
Ragnar DoW Vicky (I hope he'll destroy her units for me)

T101

Slider to 0%
1 plantation on Spices finished near Oporto
Perter has Construction now

Should I build more HAs in Lisbon and Hamburg
I have another GGen what do you think I should use him for? Another super medic?

Spoiler German land / Stats / Techs :
Capture d’écran 2017-10-25 à 01.41.52 1.png

Capture d’écran 2017-10-25 à 01.42.31 1.png
Capture d’écran 2017-10-25 à 01.43.53.png

For the near future I need to get some cash or commerce to cover city maintenance. And we could seriously give a hand to Ragnar soon I think. But first some scouting is very necessary.
 

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