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[BERT] Water cities should not be penalized when building explorers.

Discussion in 'CivBE - Ideas and Suggestions' started by Idleray, Oct 25, 2015.

  1. Idleray

    Idleray Chieftain

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    This is a major disincentive to play Chungsu and Northsea. Your entire start is hampered.
     
  2. Cyon

    Cyon Cosmonaut

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    Well they can churn out patrol boats in a very fast manner though, but I agree the penality is a bit much
     
  3. GAGA Extrem

    GAGA Extrem Chieftain

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    The other benefits (TR and culture bonus, lower unhealth) strongly compensate that drawback.
     
  4. GeoModder

    GeoModder Chieftain

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    Buy your explorers instead? Or (if you disclosed the option) choose Pioneers in the setup phase of the game. Faster colonist/explorer production.
     
  5. Olodune

    Olodune Chieftain GOTM Staff

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    I think you underestimate the amount of resource pods (and earth artifacts) that early Patrol Boats can find. They are a worthwhile early alternative. Plenty of explorers will still be wanted at some point, however.

    Getting an aquatic start in a small inland sea would be painful.
     
  6. gunnergoz

    gunnergoz Cat Herder

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    Where are the water cities' production buffs and nerfs defined? This has bugged me not to see it mentioned where I've looked so far in the game.
     
  7. Idleray

    Idleray Chieftain

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    ummm. Somewhere in the civilopedia.

    Water cities get a 50% penalty to building land units (inc. explorers but NOT inc. workers and colonists) and air (inc. orbitals), but a 100% bonus to naval units.

    land cities with access to water get a 50% penalty to naval units.
     
  8. GAGA Extrem

    GAGA Extrem Chieftain

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    The raw data is found in:
    Steam\steamapps\common\Sid Meier's Civilization Beyond Earth\assets\DLC\Expansion1\Gameplay\XML\GlobalDefines.xml
     
  9. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    I think the different benefits and drawbacks for Aquatic Cities really sells them as a mechanic (regardless of their usefulness at incredibly-optimised / high-level play).

    That said, I think what Firaxis should really work on - and early Civ. games have suffered from this - is displaying key information in the UI.

    I love the Civilopedia, but the specific benefits of founding a City should be linked to a Colonist tooltip when you want to settle.
     
  10. omniclast

    omniclast Chieftain

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    Yes, it doesn't make much sense that Explorers are classified as land units even though they are effectively amphibious now.
     
  11. gunnergoz

    gunnergoz Cat Herder

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    Thank you, friend, learn something every day. :D
     
  12. Ryika

    Ryika likes cookies and milk.

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    Doesn't change the fact that water cities are already extremely strong. Add cheap explorers to the list and land cities become complete nonviable in comparison.

    From a balance-perspective the current system is the better one.
     
  13. Ravenwild

    Ravenwild Chieftain

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    It's fine. The cities don't need to work the same to be balanced. If you are worried about exploration, pick the soldier on start. You get a patrol boat and you'll pick up every resource pod in the ocean and recon expedition sites. You are likely to get a production artifact so you can cash that in for a free unit or building in first 25 turns or so if desired.

    Aquatic cities have 50% bonus to culture rate so you can get your virtues quicker to prop up your empire as well.
     
  14. LORD ORION

    LORD ORION Chieftain

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    That sounds like complete balance.

    Soldier always, and pioneer quest water city always.
    +
    Forget about any excavation strats.

    /sarcasm

    There needs to be an explorer sub. (that can also get underneath ice)
     
  15. Ryika

    Ryika likes cookies and milk.

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    Your post is very reasonable.
    Spoiler :
    /sarcasm :D

    Joking aside, you can still do excavation strategies in water-based empires, they're just delayed in favor of the Patrol Boat that can gather more Resource Pods than any land explorer ever could, which somewhat equalizes the playing field. So hat do land based empires get to compensate for the Explorer Submarine? A 4 movement walker unit that can't do excavations? Or do we just ignore balance and forget about any resource pod strats on land?
     
  16. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    Moderator Action: Moved to Ideas & Suggestions
     
  17. LORD ORION

    LORD ORION Chieftain

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    A little slow today? Maybe you need coffee?

    It's a submarine, it can't go on land.
    It's a submarine, if you build it in a coastal city you are penalized.

    BTW, chances are you can get a patrol boat just as fast with a land city using colony initiative from an artifact. So once again, always go weapons arsenal if you are landing in water? Master Balance....
     
  18. Ryika

    Ryika likes cookies and milk.

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    You're still not addressing the balance issue. What do land cities get to keep up with the bump in strength that water cities would gain if they had patrol boats and easy access to early game explorers?

    If currently both starts are somewhat equal, then having easy access to an explorer unit - even if it's restricted to water only - would push the balance further towards water cities if you don't change anything else.

    Don't get me wrong: Yes, changes could be made to maintain the balance and open up more options for both kinds of play and if they're implemented properly then it would be a big step up to get different openings on a similar level - but what you're proposing is still ignoring the balance issue that if you have the ability to start with a Patrol Boat AND easier access to explorers, then of course the overall strength will increase.

    So how would you go about to prevent that? THAT's the question I'm asking, because that's the piece that's missing in your suggestion.
     

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