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Best AGG/PRO leader.

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Gwynnja, Oct 1, 2013.

?

PRO/AGG leader?

  1. Alexander (AGG/PHI)

    4.4%
  2. Boudica (AGG/CHA)

    2.2%
  3. Genghis Khan (AGG/IMP)

    4.4%
  4. Hammurabi (AGG/ORG)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Kublai Khan (AGG/CRE)

    8.9%
  6. Montezuma (AGG/SPI)

    11.1%
  7. Ragnar (AGG/FIN)

    6.7%
  8. Shaka (AGG/EXP)

    20.0%
  9. Stalin (AGG/IND)

    4.4%
  10. Tokugawa (AGG/PRO)

    13.3%
  11. Charlemagne (PRO/IMP)

    2.2%
  12. Churchill (PRO/CHA)

    2.2%
  13. Gilgamesh (PRO/CRE)

    8.9%
  14. Mao (PRO/EXP)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  15. Qin Shi Huang (PRO/IND)

    6.7%
  16. Saladin (PRO/SPI)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  17. Sitting Bull (PRO/PHI)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  18. Wang Kon (PRO/FIN)

    4.4%
  1. Gwynnja

    Gwynnja Deity

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    I know the whole "best trait" discussion has been done ad nauseum, but I think it's widely accepted that AGG and PRO are hands down the worst traits (at least in the S&T forum.) I'm interested in discussion regarding who you think the best leader with at least one of these traits is. I'm going to go with Gilgamesh. He has the best starting tech combo with agriculture and the wheel, a pretty good UU in the Vulture, a pretty good UB with the Ziggurat, and a pretty good other trait with creative.
     
  2. plastiqe

    plastiqe Grinch

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    Sacrificial Altar whip cycles slipping in and out of Slavery with the best super medics in the game. Montezuma is one of my top 5 leaders in the entire game, let alone the leaders on this poll.
     
  3. Gwynnja

    Gwynnja Deity

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    Sacrificial Alter is the best UB in the game, easily. I like Impi's better than jags for my medics but that's a minor preferential difference. Monty definitely gets honorable mention on this list, as do Shaka and Qin, for me. But ugh... dem starting techs. :cry: I wouldn't put him in my top 5. Or Gilgamesh either, for that matter.
     
  4. Macksideshow

    Macksideshow Prince

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    I voted Ragnar because I rate AGG higher than PRO (but I'm starting to understand the value of PRO more these days). I think FIN is probably the strongest trait and the Viking UU can be leveraged very effectively in the right situation.
     
  5. SyntaxError

    SyntaxError ...

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    Tokugawa since he is the only AGG/PRO leader in the game!
     
  6. dohh

    dohh Warlord

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    That will make someone to argue AGG or PRO being so bad even more important, as discussion is mostly a good thing.
     
  7. Gwynnja

    Gwynnja Deity

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    If you can present an argument that can convince me that PRO and AGG aren't the worst traits I'll be surprised and impressed.
     
  8. Fintourist

    Fintourist Chieftain

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    I'm sure you forgot/didn't count Terrace.. :mischief:
     
  9. Robert FIN

    Robert FIN Monty n' Roll

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    I voted for Gilga. Creative is solid trait, UU is awesome, UB is average/fine. I just love vulture rush, its so good against the archers fortifien in enemy capital! And the city names are nice too; Ur! Uruk! Kish!
     
  10. Gwynnja

    Gwynnja Deity

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    I don't think the terrace is close. I mean, granaries are great, but I really don't need the culture most of the time.
     
  11. Fintourist

    Fintourist Chieftain

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    Come on! Of course if you are playing a CRE leader, then it's useless.. But otherwise that's practically a free trait since your first build should in most cases be a granary (if not, that's always a compromise). Combine Terrace with an EXP leader and it's pretty much broken.

    Sure, whipping is the way to go and especially in food-rich maps SA is useful and nice, but the early benefits that you get from not having to build monument/missionaries beats the whip counter reduction by thousand miles!
     
  12. Gwynnja

    Gwynnja Deity

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    Calling the terrace a "free trait" is laughable, and here's why: Creative gives a new city +2 culture from the turn that it's settled. That means that in five turns you get your border pop, no matter what. It's possible to have a terrace built in five turns by sacrificing worker turns and forests, but you still won't get your border pop in five turns, and you won't have definitely won't have half price libraries, colosseums, and theaters.

    So what you're saying is that not having to build a 30 hammer building is a thousand times better than having the ability to endlessly stack one pop whips? Could you go into detail on this, because I don't follow.
     
  13. TheMadFiddler

    TheMadFiddler Chieftain

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    I second this. Based on the title, this is the only acceptable answer.
     
  14. Gwynnja

    Gwynnja Deity

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    Right. I forgot this is the internet, where semantics always trumps common sense. I apologize for the lack of an "or.":wallbash:
     
  15. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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  16. TheMadFiddler

    TheMadFiddler Chieftain

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    If it makes you feel better, I also lived in Japan for a number of years, so have an emotional attachment to Toku and try to pump him up any chance I get.
     
  17. Fintourist

    Fintourist Chieftain

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    It seems that we are entering a discussion, which can only end with "we agree to disagree".. :p

    Sure, let's be literal then. Of course if I have to choose between CRE and terrace I would take CRE. But if I could decide between PRO or AGG or Terrace, I would always take Terrace. Anyways, that's not the point. We are comparing SA and Terrace.

    (Since we are now taking all literally. Terrace is not 1000 times better than SA, but still a lot better)

    Ok, the way I see it: SA does not provide you any free hammers. You still get only 30 raw hammers per pop point from your whip (normal speed). What it does give you, is flexibility. Without SA you just try to avoid 1-pop whips and use 2-pop or 3-pop whips instead. Maybe, if you have lots of food and haven't planned your micro appropraitely you can't whip just as many pop points away as you would with SA, or at least not as quickly.

    And about Terrace: As you surely know, Civ is a snowball game, where early advantages cumulate. Saving those 30-hammers (that now go into granary instead of monument) means that your growth speed increases and you end up more ahead than just those 30 hammers. (Should I elaborate on this or can you roughly quantify the value of the earlier granary?) And this boost has significantly more impact than the fact that you can start 1-pop whipping stuff 50-100 turns later (assuming normal speed) (map size, difficulty and other settings/factors influence how much earlier you are getting Pottery than CoL).
     
  18. Gwynnja

    Gwynnja Deity

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    I'm not saying an early granary isn't useful. I'd say that a granary is the most powerful building in the game. But, an extra two culture doesn't make an already powerful building that much more powerful. Consider, as HC you settle your early city and it's positioned in a way that you need a border pop pronto. Do you A. one pop whip a monument the same that you would with another non-creative civ, B. wait until your city is size four so you can two pop whip a terrace, or C. use nine worker turns and chop three forests (it's early and you don't have math yet for power chops)? Personally, I'll go with the monument. But I also try to position my cities in such a way that my most powerful resources are in my inner ring and I'm not relying on a border pop. It's not like the terrace sucks or anything. It's definitely useful for cultural pressure, but like I said before, it's not like being able to one pop chain whip from code of laws until the end of the game.
     
  19. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    I still remember the games I played with HC, and how I had 0 cultural pressure in those games because of the Terrace. Also, many cities which one conqueres already have a Granary -> Terrace which then saves pop because of NN for a Theater.
     
  20. Fintourist

    Fintourist Chieftain

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    Sure, sure. Everything is always situational. But one thing is sure: If I'm Inca, I'm not going to build a single monument in the entire game.

    What I on general level as Inca will try to do is to make sure that I have at least one food resource in the first ring or that I can borrow one from a nearby city. Then I try to get 30 hammers in (maybe with one chop) before my city has more than half of it's food box full at size 2, and then 1-pop whip the Terrace. But again it's situational. If I have Maths and the city really requires a border pop, I would try to organize my micro so that 2 chops come in on the turn the city is founded.

    I just wrote a lengthy post about the benefits of earlier granary in the best/worst leader trait - thread. The same principle applies here. If you have to build a monument before granary, it sets you significantly back.

    But yeah, as you wrote, we probably don't disagree about the importance of early granary. What we are probably disagreeing is the economic value of SA. Sure it is one of the more useful UBs, but as I said, your pop points still bring exactly as many hammers as before. I agree that it has value! Sure! It makes playing easier as you don't have to pay some much attention to whip unhappiness. And it definitely makes life easier in cities with lots and lots of food, but no production.

    But the main thing here is that SA's benefits come so much later than Terrace's that a competent player with early bonus has already snowballed into the significant lead. (And the other thing is that I don't believe that the actual hammer bonus that SA's create compared to normal 2/3-pop :whipped: is really that big. Or can you quantify it somehow?) :mischief:
     

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