1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Best AGG/PRO leader.

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Gwynnja, Oct 1, 2013.

?

PRO/AGG leader?

  1. Alexander (AGG/PHI)

    4.4%
  2. Boudica (AGG/CHA)

    2.2%
  3. Genghis Khan (AGG/IMP)

    4.4%
  4. Hammurabi (AGG/ORG)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Kublai Khan (AGG/CRE)

    8.9%
  6. Montezuma (AGG/SPI)

    11.1%
  7. Ragnar (AGG/FIN)

    6.7%
  8. Shaka (AGG/EXP)

    20.0%
  9. Stalin (AGG/IND)

    4.4%
  10. Tokugawa (AGG/PRO)

    13.3%
  11. Charlemagne (PRO/IMP)

    2.2%
  12. Churchill (PRO/CHA)

    2.2%
  13. Gilgamesh (PRO/CRE)

    8.9%
  14. Mao (PRO/EXP)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  15. Qin Shi Huang (PRO/IND)

    6.7%
  16. Saladin (PRO/SPI)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  17. Sitting Bull (PRO/PHI)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  18. Wang Kon (PRO/FIN)

    4.4%
  1. Gwynnja

    Gwynnja Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2007
    Messages:
    2,010
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    CA
    Who said anything about a hammer bonus? I know I didn't. You mentioned a snowball effect, and the SA's bonus works in the same fashion. You don't get more hammers, per se, but say you want to whip every other turn for ten turns. Anyone without a SA is going to have +5 angry guys from all that whipping. The SA city will only have +3 (I think) and +2 the next turn. Then, because Monty's spiritual, you can just switch over to Caste for a bit, let everyone calm down, and run some scientists (or merchants. Or artists, I guess if that's your thing.)
     
  2. Fintourist

    Fintourist Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Messages:
    64
    That's not how the mechanic works... You only get +1:mad: from whipping. It's only the cooldown that changes...

    If it would go like you say, then SA would surely be pretty much a requirement for being able to do any whipping at all. But that's luckily not the case.

    EDIT: Ok, I misread you. You are talking about extreme cases where you whip every 2nd turn.

    With SA unhappiness goes like this:
    1
    1
    2
    2
    3
    2
    3
    3
    4
    4
    3

    While without it goes
    1
    1
    2
    2
    3
    3
    4
    4
    5
    5
    4

    So yeah, you are 1 happiness ahead and it will go away faster. However, it's already bad if you have to do it and you are whipping so many pop points away that even without SA you should have some room to grow. (In the mid-game all your unit whips should not be 1-pop whips in this example.)

    EDIT2: That still does not make SA's much more valuable in my eyes... :lol:
     
  3. Gwynnja

    Gwynnja Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2007
    Messages:
    2,010
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    CA
    Code of laws is a classical era tech. Not quite "mid-game." And by classical, my cities aren't exactly production powerhouses. Repeatedly whipping out catapults or horse archers or jaguars or elephants for one (or two if you'd rather) to amass a ridiculous sized army ridiculously fast is much more useful to me than having a bit of extra cultural pressure.
     
  4. Fintourist

    Fintourist Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Messages:
    64
    Oh boy, I really regret entering this pointless discussion. Either you are not reading my posts, not getting them or are just trolling. For the one last time: Terrace is essentially not about "a bit of extra cultural pressure". It's about saving hammers and getting extra speed when it counts, namely in the early game. Anyways, it's already clear that this discussion is not going to lead to anything useful so let's just disagree. I'm not going to spend my time by writing further when my every argument is just skipped and replaced by something like "artists seem to be your thing".
     
  5. plastiqe

    plastiqe Grinch

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2004
    Messages:
    597
    Location:
    Canada, eh
    If you have a good food city that did a 2 pop whip for overflow every time the cooldown is up with a Sacrificial Altar, doesn't that translate into free hammers? Over the course of the game SA allows twice as much whipping.

    For an extreme example lets say you were trying to generate overflow from 2 pop whips:

    start unit
    2 pop whip
    overflow
    start unit
    2 pop whip
    overflow
    start unit
    2 pop whip
    overflow
    start unit
    2 pop whip
    overflow

    The most important part to compare is how soon you can do it again. 13 turns of :mad: remain in the city with a Sacrificial Altar vs. 33 until :mad: clears in a city without one. Yes it comes much later than Terrace but how many extra whips does it take to make up for saving 30 hammers from a monument early on?
     
  6. Fintourist

    Fintourist Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Messages:
    64
    The thing is that the limiting factor of how many pop points you can whip away is in the first place: How many pop points do you have in the first place :lol: (to make it clear, cooldown is just a secondary although an important factor)

    SA just makes it easier to do 1-pop (or 2-pop) whips. An easy example: You want to produce fast 2 axes. With SA in place you can do it easily with two 1-pop whips. If you don't have SA, it's a better practise to first put 1-4/35 hammers into axe, do a 2-pop whip and overflow massively into 2nd axe.

    So yeah, SA made it easier, but in both cases you turn 2-pop points into 60 hammers. Possibly you had to work unoptimal tiles to create a situation where you can 2-pop whip the axe and SA saved you a hammer or two.

    Another thing is that later in the game you normally do want to grow your cities bigger, which makes whipping more costly (more food needed to grow -> food-to-hammers conversion rate is weaker). Therefore situations where you whip e.g 3 times in 10 turns are typically quite suboptimal.

    Of course here is one possible utilization of SA: You have a very food rich city and you manage to grow it in 5 turns from size 3 to size 6 and then you always 3-pop whip a unit. Kind of a weaker version of Globe Theater drafting.

    And again as a remainder: SA is a good UB, I'm not denying that. It produces value e.g. by helping you to avoid situations where you need to stagnate a food-rich city. But it is not doing directly something miraculous as giving you extra pop points to whip away (which on the other hand is, what an earlier granary is doing for you)
     
  7. mintegar

    mintegar Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2010
    Messages:
    253
    Food and unhappiness are both limiting factors. UH will directly cause a reduction of available food if you get angry citizens. Now you may slap the label "primary" on the population all you want, but why do you think that is important? Unhappy faces will cause your city to get less food, less food will cause slower #pop growth. If you whip a city repeatetly, SA will cut the generated unhappiness in half over the long run.

    You can just apply tactic #2 also while having the SA. That will also gain you the 60h/whip, but because unhappiness will rise only to 1/2 the level over the long run, you get effectively double the production in a high food city.

    Well ok, the terrace will give you that benefit in cities where you don't need to build the monuments. But its only a 1-time initial benefit, not sustained increased production.
     
  8. plastiqe

    plastiqe Grinch

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2004
    Messages:
    597
    Location:
    Canada, eh
    I was gonna say the same thing but mintegar did so more succintly and better than I would have. : )

    Aztecs actually get better on slower game speeds when the shortened whip anger is longer because there is more time to change civics with Spiritual. The civic change cooldown is always 5 turns so you can switch into Caste and switch back to Slavery for the next whip cycle better on slower speeds. Montezuma is probably the most micro intensive leader in the game with Spiritual and Sacrificial Altar.

    Shaka is winning the poll though, I guess people think he is better than Montezuma? I'd say Impi is much better than the Jag, but I would put Spiritual ahead of Expansionist and SA ahead of Ikhanda.
     
  9. lindsay40k

    lindsay40k Emperor

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,671
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    England
    I went for Alexander. Shaka and Monty are brutal, and Gilga is great, and SB has got a nasty Crossbow rush, but Alex just seems to be very well placed to quickly research Construction via bulb or academy and has a great unit for acquiring the Elephants and/or Shrine needed to make that count. Capturing cities with culture buildings intact is always good, too.

    Gilga makes me frown a bit because, whilst he likes to get Priesthood, the popular Oracle > CoL routine - fairly important to derail any AI Liberalism rushes, get access to Philosophy, guarantee a Shrine etc - loses a big part of its payload of Courthouses. His traits aren't perfectly suited to early MC, and he really relies on nice starting resources to go for PRO Feudalism.
     
  10. Fintourist

    Fintourist Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Messages:
    64
    Obviously I'm not letting my cities grow into unhappiness. Assuming you let whip cooldown always go to 0 and then always perform a whip, your happy cap is exactly the same regardless of whether you have SA or not.

    I think this is the main misunderstanding in this case. You are not getting anywhere near the double production with SA.

    Couple of points to consider:
    - When the city size increases whip conversion rate becomes worse. You do not want to whip your large cities constantly unless you are under very specific circumstances. In the early game this is different. You need less food to grow a size (better conversion rate) and getting that settler/worker out couple of turns earlier makes really a huge difference. This is one of the reasons why workshop economy often becomes clearly superior to whipping later in the game.
    - If you don't have SA, you whip away more pop points per whip. The total amount of pop whipped away can be exactly the same. 3-pop or 4-pop whipping a valuable building is a valid option in a high-food, low-production city that we are considering here. No! SA is not getting you double production!
    - And once again! I'm not saying SA weren't a good UB. It generates value e.g. allowing your cities grow earlier to your happy cap after a whip. And it really does make your micro a lot easier when it comes to producing e.g. units with low hammer value.

    Civ is a snowballing game where small advantages cumulate with time. It's kind of the same principle as with the time value of money. Would you take 1000 extra beakers on T0 or T100? Yeah, on T0. Immediate BW, early Currency.. You get huge benefits, and you will be way more than 1000 beakers ahead on T100 compared to the situation, where you did not get this bonus.

    And for exactly this reason the XX food boost that you get thanks to terrace is more valuable than those XXX foodhammers that SA saves you during the turns 100-500. (normal speed)
     
  11. plastiqe

    plastiqe Grinch

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2004
    Messages:
    597
    Location:
    Canada, eh
    Okay. . . . yet that is irrelevant to the point mintegar or anyone else is making. A Temple is a building that increases the happy cap. Sacrificial Altar does not increase the happy cap. Walls increase city defense; a SA does not increase city defense. Airports.. give an extra trade route...... a SA... does not give... an extra trade route. The point is that the number of whip anger turns from using hurry production in Slavery is what changes with a SA.

    Sacrificial Altar gives -50% :mad: duration from whipping, so on normal speed it goes from 10 turns to 5 turns. If they whip every 5 turns instead of every 10 turns, they are getting 2 whips where any other team gets 1. So for example Aztecs could 2 pop whip an Axeman, wait 5 turns for the SA shortened whip anger to dissipate, and then 2 pop whip an Axeman. After 10 turns they have whipped two Axemen. Inca could 2 pop whip an Axeman and after 10 turns they have whipped an Axeman.
    That is why SA is good, it means you_can_whip_again_sooner.

    Yes, it takes more food to grow back at larger sizes. I don't think the amount of food it takes to grow is in dispute. If you're gonna talk about Slavery and a State Property economy you should probably mention The Kremlin too.

    Even after reading it out loud to myself, I don't understand this part... maybe that's because it doesn't make sense like when you said Aztecs should do two 1 pop whips. Improving food to hammers conversion rate is what Kremlin does. I think I already explained what a SA does (Hint: SA does not improve your science rate by 25%).

    I was saying Aztecs makes your micro more complicated, ie. harder, ie. the hardest in the game (though that isn't necessarily a bad thing). To do things truly optimally you can switch around tiles in cities as you grow & whip, and try to time your whip cycles to coincide with how you manage the swapping of civics with the Spiritual cooldown.

    7 is my lucky number, can I take them on turn 7? : P

    At this point I dunno what else to write. I'm starting to think maybe you have never actually played Aztecs, only Inca. To paraphrase a William Shatner song:

    You'll never whip like common people
    You'll never do whatever common people do
    You'll never failgold like common people
    You'll never watch your whip anger slide out of view

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXWEM4gZhg4
     
  12. AW Arcaeca

    AW Arcaeca Deus Vult

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2013
    Messages:
    2,965
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Operation Padlock ground zero
    Alexander. Good for early warring (which in my case is usually defending, which is even more important than offense) from free combat I promo, but still with the ability to rush more wonders, culture bomb more cities and build more holy cities shrines than the average leader with great people.

    Or in short, alex can war well early on (especially with his UU) while still having a good grip on culture. Or maybe that's just my thinking because I'm not exactly the best civ4 player... (not exactly a noob, because at least I know what I'm doing...) :crazyeye:
     
  13. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2008
    Messages:
    22,218
    Alex has Philo going for him, but Phalanx ain't nothin' special and Greek starting techs blow. Depends on what you meant by "early" warring, as I don't really consider him all that special early on.

    Surprised by the lack of Qin love. If you gotta a sucky trait like Agg or Pro, you can make up for it with the best starting tech combo, IND trait, and a pretty darn cool UU (that actually benefits from PRO)
     
  14. Fintourist

    Fintourist Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Messages:
    64
    @plastqe: What a long and condescending post. Well, I try one last time. As an answer to the content in your post:
    - I know how SA works
    - I know how Kremlin works
    - We are talking about terrace vs SA. I'm not assuming restricted leaders so the comments on easiness do not relate to Montezuma's traits. SPI is obviously a microheavy trait.

    But yeah, one last try:

    I don't think you will be getting it before you do try. I think you have to do the math yourself, so here is the case for you:

    - Normal speed
    - You have a size 10 city
    - It has granary and 20/40 :food: in the box
    - Food surplus: +5 :food:
    - Natural production at size 10 is 15 :hammers:
    - To ease up calculations let's assume that the tiles that you whip away are food neutral. Let's say the the tile yield is 2:food:/2:hammers: (tiles no. 5-11)
    - You do not have production multipliers (forge etc.)
    - Your whip unhappiness is currently 0 and happy cap is 10 or 11 (decide freely).

    Ok, you want to produce a rifleman (110 :hammers:) and a knight (100 :hammers:) during the next ~10 turns. Rest of the production will be dumped into something, let's say a random wonder.

    How would you play this situation if you had SA. And when you don't have? Compare the results and calculate how much did SA benefit you.

    If you think that some of the variables are not fair or whatever, feel free to change them. The idea is here not to illustrate an emergency situation where you whip 5 times in 10 turns, but to consider more of a regular situation, which leaves you with 0 whip unhappiness).

    I think you said, that you did not get why "Aztecs would like to do 1-pop whips". Take the similar settings as above and try to produce 4 or 5 longbows during the 10 turns and you see the real benefit of SA.

    After you put so much effort into a post, where you more or less only enjoyed mocking me, I hope that you now will put the similar effort into trying to actually understand my point. (HINT: probably the basic way to do this comparison is the approach where the player with SA does two 2-pop whips and the player without SA 4-pop whips the rifle)

    EDIT: In order to make your work easier. Feel free to use this format:

    Turn 1: City Size: 10, Food at EOT: 25/40 :food:, Production at EOT: 15/100 :hammers: Knight, Comment (e.g. whip)

    at EOT = at the end of the turn
     
  15. Fintourist

    Fintourist Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Messages:
    64
    China is a nice civ thanks to its starting techs for sure, but at least I did not read this poll being about restricted pairings. Consequently Ragnar was a fairly easy choice for me.. If I had to consider restricted pairings that would already be much more dependent on settings, but in a competitive game FIN/AGG of blank civ might still be my pick over IND/PRO of China (even though Agri/Mining can boost your start very nicely and Cho-Ko-Nus are fun).
     
  16. plastiqe

    plastiqe Grinch

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2004
    Messages:
    597
    Location:
    Canada, eh
    Thanks!

    Over and over throughout this thread you bring up examples that are unrelated or untrue about the discussion yet you claim them as evidence of your position. I'm not quite sure if you're doing it on purpose or not, more on that later.

    That was like a noobs version of kossin's micro challenge. Why do you go to whiping Riflemen/Knight in a suboptimal whipping city as your example? You have wrote several times, correctly, that whipping gets less efficient at larger city sizes. So of course you don't have a Forge yet in the hypothetical city by the time you're building Riflemen and yet you deem it a "regular situation'? It's no wonder you don't understand the benefits of a SA if this is the scenario you set up for it.

    What is this example supposed to show? The conclusion I reach is that you're either futilely trying to set up a situation where SA is less effective, or you do not have a grasp on -50% :mad: duration from whipping.

    I put some production into the Rifle and overflowed into the Knight. Here is the city after whipping the rest of the Knight with 5 turns of whip anger remaining. I'd already done the pictures before you edited in your formatting rules, but please do enlighten me with how you think a SA doesn't help or is worse than a Terrace because of this situation. Really. Do it.
    Spoiler :

    (Click on the "show" button to reveal the image)

    Here is another example city where I show "the actual hammer bonus that SA's create compared to normal 2/3-pop". It has one Fish, a Granary, a Lighthouse, Monarchy and a Sacrificial Altar. Very simply to show the power of the SA I did 2 pop Axemen whips every time the whip anger was gone. An important point is that I could keep doing 2 pop whips every 5 turns with this city until my units went on strike for lack of gold to pay them. A city without a SA accrues :mad: to quickly to keep up. That's a fact. And there is my challenge to you: Try to continually whip Axemen without a SA in the same time frame.
    Spoiler :


    (Click on the "show" button to reveal the images, two this time)

    This post was the reason I responded to you in the first place, because at first you seemed intelligent and maybe you were right about Gwynnja not giving you a fair shake. Newb pity I guess.

    Yes, I was mocking you last time and a bit this time (which is pretty fun btw). At least you recognized it which proves you aren't a forum posting bot. But the things you accused in this post, that is what you're doing in so many words.

    Anyways if "one last try" means you're giving up then I win. :goodjob:
     
  17. Fintourist

    Fintourist Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Messages:
    64
    The challenge is that you don't get them. Or refuse to get them.

    I won't spend anymore time trying to educate you. You did not bother doing the math and I won't spend my time doing it for you. You think that there is nothing you could eventually learn for me and that's fine.

    Every city and situation is different. You will find cases where SA helps you a lot. In your 1-tile island with absolutely no happiness and which for some reason has to produce only axes SA is surely a great help! On the other hand, it's not an uncommon situation where whipping more often than every 10 turns does not bring you any benefits (making SA useless).

    If you had bothered doing the exercise I offered, we could have discussed how the benefits of SA increase/decrease as we change variables. (E.g. when city size decreases, tiles that are whipped away are better and so on). Afterwards, we could have compared the benefits from SA to the benefits of Terrace while taking into the account the time value of those hammers (there are studies about it by the way).

    But yes, we are ready and you can start bullying someone else. I try to stop myself from entering any new discussions.
     
  18. plastiqe

    plastiqe Grinch

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2004
    Messages:
    597
    Location:
    Canada, eh
    There you go with your passive aggressive refusal to answer any of the questions I pose and threats to end the discussion. Do the math? What are you assigning me homework? I'm held to your high level of quantifiying yet you can get by with your opinion. Perhaps you'd like me to play and document a game where I use the SA and present it to you as proof. Or maybe I can come to your house and do your chores too. Do your own math lol.

    And yet I did take the time to actually create and execute your silly situation in the worldbuilder and you couldn't to do anything other than spout more of your BS in response. I'm not angry about it or anything, it's kinda like what I imagine dealing with a Tea Party Republican would be like. Oh but I'm still willing to give you a chance. Here are two easy ones:

    True or False. A Sacrificial Altar provide more whips than a regular courthouse?

    Pick a number. How many extra whips would it take before Sacrificial Altar surpassed the benefit of free culture from a Terrace?
     
  19. Fintourist

    Fintourist Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Messages:
    64
    You don't have to do anything. But if you're not doing anything don't act like you have proven something. I really don't think that you have any idea how many extra hammers SA is creating for you in a city.

    1. The fact that you post a single screenshot where you are at size 6 on the 10th turn already means that you are doing it wrong. (or see #3)
    2. And a single screenshot is not a comparison.
    3. And you're obviously playing a different situation than described, working different tiles etc. Without further explanation how is that supposed to show absolutely anything?
    4. I said to you that you can create a regular situation of your choosing so don't complain about my parameters. Show me your standard city in a standard situation, explain the setting and do the comparison instead of whining that I have chosen a case that you don't like.

    True. Whipping twice as often is what that UB allows. But for the 100th time. It's not the amount of whips that determines the size of the benefit that you get from SA. It's the amount of food (pop points in the first place) turned into hammers and their conversion rate.

    The question is wrong. For the 101st time. It's not about the amount of whips. It's the amount of food turned into hammers and their conversion rate.

    The question should be: How many extra hammers (and when) should SA generate during its life time before SA surpassed the benefit of free culture from a Terrace? And that would be both an interesting, complex and a good question. However, it does not look like we are ever going to get that far since what ever I write, your answer is always: "Hey. SA allows you to whip twice as often. That's awesome! Twice as many whips! Don't you get it?"
     
  20. plastiqe

    plastiqe Grinch

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2004
    Messages:
    597
    Location:
    Canada, eh
    For the sake of progress I'll give you a pass on the first two parts of that post cause that was a big step for you. : P

    The proof that I showed was with simple Fish, Granary, Lighthouse, Sacrificial Altar and a bit of happiness (I used Monarchy) a city can 2 pop whip (I used Axemen) with overflow every 5 turns on normal speed. It's not a theory, look at the turn count on the screenshots. I was literally whipping twice as often, that's the "how many".

    I opine that a city or cities like that (or better) would be easy to set up near the end of the classical age in every game. Because it's so good you'd typically beeline for your advantage and prioritize food and then production modifiers even moreso when playing Aztec. That's the "when".
     

Share This Page