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Best AGG/PRO leader.

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Gwynnja, Oct 1, 2013.

?

PRO/AGG leader?

  1. Alexander (AGG/PHI)

    4.4%
  2. Boudica (AGG/CHA)

    2.2%
  3. Genghis Khan (AGG/IMP)

    4.4%
  4. Hammurabi (AGG/ORG)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Kublai Khan (AGG/CRE)

    8.9%
  6. Montezuma (AGG/SPI)

    11.1%
  7. Ragnar (AGG/FIN)

    6.7%
  8. Shaka (AGG/EXP)

    20.0%
  9. Stalin (AGG/IND)

    4.4%
  10. Tokugawa (AGG/PRO)

    13.3%
  11. Charlemagne (PRO/IMP)

    2.2%
  12. Churchill (PRO/CHA)

    2.2%
  13. Gilgamesh (PRO/CRE)

    8.9%
  14. Mao (PRO/EXP)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  15. Qin Shi Huang (PRO/IND)

    6.7%
  16. Saladin (PRO/SPI)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  17. Sitting Bull (PRO/PHI)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  18. Wang Kon (PRO/FIN)

    4.4%
  1. Iranon

    Iranon Deity Whipping Boy

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,214
    Location:
    Germany
    One of the big assumptions I had a problem with: we would build monuments. I build zero more often than not, I'll just have subtly different city placement depending on whether I get free culture.

    With the Sacrificial Altar, I know in advance that a city won't need hammer tiles to pull its weight... so playing Aztecs affects my priorities long before I research CoL. This will result in different city placement, especially distribution of flood plains or food resource clumps, and may make me prioritise coastal/island spots that I'd otherwise neglect because of sub-par midgame potential.
    If having the Sacrificial Altar down the line makes me go for a Great Lighthouse economy from the start, that changes the entire game.

    Both Terrace and SA alter optimal early decisions to a significant extent rather than being "a little extra x thrown in". Rigorous analysis works if we can keep almost everything constant, or if things we change are easy to quantify.
    I've done my share of gratuitous maths (FIN vs. ORG, tile improvements and extreme lategame economies, cost-effectiveness of units, value of different unit promotions, GPP scaling, whipping efficiency...) but I don't think it's appropriate here.
     
  2. Fintourist

    Fintourist Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Messages:
    64
    Me neither. Or maybe in extreme cases, where I don't have production for more expensive stuff and border pop is a must. But I know that you understand that limited city placements also bring a cost and you just can't always dot-map all of your best tiles into first ring (sea-food being an easy example).

    Yeah, it would be very complex and I won't do it alone for fun either. Enough trolling made me start, but it would still be a long road until it would be done. Complex problems are fun, but my life is simply too hectic for doing that and the hateful responses I got, also destroyed a significant part of my motivation.

    If you want to provide the links I would be interested in:
    a) your FIN vs. ORG analysis (I've seen a very decent one and I would like to see what your conclusion was). Things like varying map settings, game difficulty, SP vs. MP and many others make the comparison also very complex and I would be surprised if you managed to end up with something very concrete. My guess is that with some kind of standard settings you ended up with ORG maintenance savings being 50-60 % of the value that FIN provides. Useful infra discounts brought ORG closer, but FIN still won by a reasonable margin.
    b) your extreme late game economy examples. I think I'm aware of the most cheesiest tricks (related e.g. to corporations, abusing espionage economy etc.), but would still like to see what you have developed. The most game-breaking stuff gets banned, modded out (or just comes too late to matter) in the games I play, but well, I'm interested.

    Btw, I won't agree with Qin being the strongest AGG/PRO leader (restricted pairings). Synergy between PRO&UU and top starting traits are nice, but IND is just too weak for my taste. The most important mid-game wonder races are decided by who is first to the unlocking tech (of course there is a difference between SP and MP, a good human opponent can micro the wonder build a bit better than the AI..). I'm not saying that IND would not help you to do some kind of a solid GLH/Oracle play that boosts your economy early, but that's still playing catch-up especially against a FIN leader.
     
  3. plastiqe

    plastiqe Grinch

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2004
    Messages:
    597
    Location:
    Canada, eh
    IND's main benefit is for the Forges, which make the the second most important generic building (after a Granary) a two pop whip. Forges in turn increase whipping efficiency because the whip hammers now go through the +25%.

    Wonders are nice to have, but the other use of IND is in not building wonders for failgold. IND is like having +50% better super-wealth, depending on resources. You can turn Forge'd whip overflow (or forest chops) into a delayed 92:gold: each.

    The best thing about Qin's starting techs is that they are not Fishing. You can IND Oracle MC & GS Machinery for PRO CKN. How is that weak?

    But you have enough motivation to write that. : /

    I don't appreciate what I assume are references to my posts as "trolling" and the responses "hateful". If you don't want to respond to me directly then just drop it, like you said you were going to do. Snide comments about me while you're responding to someone else isn't cool.
     
  4. Fintourist

    Fintourist Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Messages:
    64
    I know what IND does. Forge discount + boosted fail gold plays are not enough to justify Qin for me either, but this is a discussion that I prefer to have with someone else.

    And here's the direct response you required. I think that what I wrote to Iranon about the earlier discussion was completely fitting. You are a forum troll. That totally misleading Shafer/Starcraft comment was another funny example of that.
     
  5. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Messages:
    26,784
    Location:
    Plymouth, MA
    Moderator Action: If you think you are being trolled, please report the post and let the staff handle it. Trying to handle it yourself only inflames the situation and usually makes it worse.

    To call someone a troll is to troll, so please do not do that, report the post and do not respond to it.

    Please try to keep this discussion civil.

    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     

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