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Best Ancient/Classical wonder: Post G&K

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by The Garibaldi, Jun 22, 2012.

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What is the best Ancient/Classical Wonder?

Poll closed Jul 4, 2012.
  1. Temple of Artemis

    2 vote(s)
    1.0%
  2. The Pyramids

    7 vote(s)
    3.4%
  3. Mausoleum of Halicarnassus

    2 vote(s)
    1.0%
  4. The Great Library

    60 vote(s)
    29.0%
  5. Stonehenge

    30 vote(s)
    14.5%
  6. The Great Lighthouse

    2 vote(s)
    1.0%
  7. Statue of Zeus

    7 vote(s)
    3.4%
  8. The Oracle

    12 vote(s)
    5.8%
  9. Petra

    52 vote(s)
    25.1%
  10. Terracotta Army

    4 vote(s)
    1.9%
  11. The Great Wall

    9 vote(s)
    4.3%
  12. Hanging Gardens

    13 vote(s)
    6.3%
  13. The Colossus

    7 vote(s)
    3.4%
  1. Flaviusx

    Flaviusx Chieftain

    Joined:
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    If you build stonehenge you won't need HS. Stonehenge pumps out enough faith to generate a GP by the time HS rolls around and then some.
     
  2. Gali

    Gali Prince

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    537
    Stonehedge can be important but with lucky pantheon can be pretty weak, I'd still say GL for all around flexibility. For certian civs like Maya on theology beeline it is ridiculous.

    As for Petra I conquered only desert civ so I got the wonder post turn 200 on normal. Both times Ive used it though man it has helped and late 6 culture is still nice.
     
  3. S.K. Ren

    S.K. Ren Prince

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    Location:
    Gig Harbor, WA
    Petra hands down. If you can get a nice desert hills start with a river, HOLY $#!7. 3 Hammers, 1 Food 1-2 Commerce + either 2 Food, 2 Hammers or 2-3 Commerce or settle a GP. I love this wonder. Hell, even normal deserts become the equivalent of a plains on a river. And Oasis? 4 Food, 1 Hammer, 3 Commerce :D
     
  4. Anvari

    Anvari Warlord

    Joined:
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    Berlin, Germany
    I think Petra could be nice, especially if you're surrounded with Desert Tiles, but i voted for the Great Library. Petra is too situational, same with The Colossus. The other wonder i really like is Stonehenge, it gives so much Faith, its really a worthwhile. But it can't beat the Great Library with the increased cost of Iron Working or as quick follow up into Philosophy or Drama and Poetry.
     
  5. S.K. Ren

    S.K. Ren Prince

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2010
    Messages:
    369
    Location:
    Gig Harbor, WA
    Except that on higher difficulties(Immortal/Deity... mostly Deity) the Great Library also become situational. You need to have luck and the perfect setup to get it and even then its like a 60% chance the AI will beat you to it. Petra on the otherhand easily attainable as long as you don't put it off of course for what it does, why would you :D Rerolling for a desert start is much easier than rerolling for an optimal start on higher difficulties.
     
  6. zomg

    zomg Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2010
    Messages:
    89
    Love the status of zeus, makes rolling cities that much easier,, ;)
     
  7. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

    Joined:
    May 7, 2007
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    Abroad
    Petra is great with the desert folklore belief, if you're in a desert heavy region. For desert tiles with no resources (i.e. just flat desert), you could settle GPs down on them and rack up the culture and gold. :D

    Also remember to build a Landship and enter the city with Petra to get the achievement. :)
     
  8. pspboy7

    pspboy7 Prince

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Canada
    I still like Great Library/National College starts as it keeps you in the tech race. However, Stonehenge is very yummy now. Colossus is also a nice yummy wonder on water maps. :D
     
  9. Gucumatz

    Gucumatz JS, secretly Rod Serling

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2011
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    6,181
    There is a very powerful chain I see now -

    Desert Folklore -> Hanging Gardens -> Petra. Hanging Gardens is the most dicey as its a wonder people still rush to, but you can rush for it to straight yourself (with a Desert start you want to head to Petra anyways)

    All that = One of the best cities imaginable.

    Had an Ethiopia start earlier today in the Desert in Northern Africa (Europe Map) where there were few resources but the few hills and gold mines/stones in the desert turned me into the powerhouse of the south.
     
  10. Gucumatz

    Gucumatz JS, secretly Rod Serling

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2011
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    Add that to an Arabian Bazaar now :D!

    I will have to play as Arabia now more for fun in multi
     
  11. ahawk

    ahawk King

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2011
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    Location:
    Milwaukee
    Petra.

    Petra can single-handedly save what at first appeared a lousy start (lots of empty desert with just a patch of flood-plains along a river) or can tremendously improve a good start (hilly desert tiles that contain gems along a river -- bear in mind, Petra still buffs desert tiles along rivers so long as they aren't floodplains, meaning a desert, hill, river tile still gets the Petra bonuses, which, for such tiles, adds up to a ton).
     
  12. GAGA Extrem

    GAGA Extrem Emperor

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    A difficult question.

    The Great Library is still amazing, but Petra has also tremendous potential.
    I just finished an OCC game with William - had 4 floodplains on a river, 7 desert hills, one oasis and 3 empty desert tiles. I think that was the fastest victory on emperor I ever achieved... :D
     
  13. BranjoHello

    BranjoHello Chieftain

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    Location:
    Stara Pazova, Serbia
    Petra is very nice addition, especially because I always have one of my first two cities near desert (I don't reroll).
     
  14. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2011
    Messages:
    5,020
    They're mostly too situational to make a call. On average, I'd say The Oracle - a free tech from the GL is nice, but it's generally less of an advantage than a free policy, because you get the GL at an earlier game stage where most techs take only a few turns to research anyway while having the edge in policies is massive early on, and they take longer to develop. It's a mistake to pigeonhole the Oracle as being for "culture victories" - everyone benefits from getting a free policy. You might as well claim you shouldn't bother with the Great Library if you don't plan a science victory. And, yes, the Oracle (oddly) gives GS points.

    But situationally there are much stronger Wonders - Petra is the best early Wonder by some way if you have the start for it (think of it as the desert equivalent of building a lighthouse plus the Colossus in a coastal city - only with a production boost and, a very nice touch thematically, a free amphitheater to boot), but by design is the most restricted in its application for the same reason. The religion boost from Stonehenge can be dominating in getting a religion off to a strong start, but it's very contingent on what you do with it and won't pay off until later in the game. My general favourite, Mausoleum of Helicarnassus, is arguably stronger now with more ways of generating Great People and the difficulty of securing gold in the early game, but again its big payoffs come later in the game (Industrial Era Great Person faithspam, anyone?), and are reliant on other things (such as faith accumulation) to maximise the effect. Though if you get the right start, being able to build it so early in the game can give you a literal goldmine from quarries.

    This seems to vary with the civs involved - in games with no religious-bonus civs, I've been able to get all the religious Wonders late on Emperor. I very rarely get beaten to the Great Library whoever else is in the game.

    Sidenote: Two votes for Terracotta Army? They did read the title correctly as 'best' rather than 'worst'?

    EDIT: Yes, the points about the Great Wall are well made - that's definitely a strong contender. The only caveat is that it's not so much use against AI opponents who will struggle to win wars anyway, all the moreso now that cities are harder to take.

    I enjoyed finding out that it also gives its bonus to the Barringer Crater.

    There's an unspoken problem with thinking of Petra as a Wonder to salvage a bad start - if you have a bad start you're going to struggle to get to Currency and then build it in the first place, and by the time you do you may already be behind. The ideal for Petra is to found a city specifically with an eye to building it, which makes it somewhat less situational as you have time to scout out the best locations for it.
     
  15. Supr49er

    Supr49er 2011 Thunderfall Cup

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    Obviously it is situational, but the Great Library is always a good choice.
     
  16. civnoob13

    civnoob13 King

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    Nottingham
    I really don't get why the Great Library and Petra are held in such high regard.

    The great library is essentially a GS point, a free tech and 1 gpt for 110 hammers. The free tech to me doesn't seem that big of a deal (and a free SP much better), scientists are really easy to come by when you need them most in the late game anyway, and 1 gpt (saved from maintenance) is a meh. Please enlighten me!

    Petra seems okay, but what I don't get is how you can possibly take advantage of it. If you've got a start with enough desert for Petra to be worthwhile, surely your production would be abysmal and you wouldn't be able to build it? And I don't even see how a base 1g, 1f, 1p is *that* good anyway; a plains start isn't held in much high regard and, unless I'm missing something, isn't that essentially what Petra provides?

    I love the great wall. During my early game by military is relatively weak and lagging behind most other civs because I always feel there is something more important to build. I can usually get away with it by defending well and by using the great wall which makes defending much easier. At least on my difficulty level (above 'normal', can't remember the name) the great wall allows you to build up a militarily deficient civilization and then catch up with the AI later once you have a stronger basis.

    Stonehenge is also very strong for reasons others listed above. Faith seems to just trickle early game and stonehenge gives it a massive, massive boost.
     
  17. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    It's because, like the GSes in vanilla, you can use strategies that make this situationally powerful, by landing the right tech at the right time - in vanilla Philosophy was the go-to, but this is now less important because Research Agreements aren't unlocked until Education and are in any case harder to exploit. To be honest it's probably a case of people overvaluing the GS now based on what they used to do with it in vanilla. I'm guilty of going for it by default most games, since Pottery is strongly favoured as the first tech - it's good but not a huge boost. You also forget that it gives you a library, so its 110 hammer cost is effectively discounted - aside from time there's no particular reason not to build the GS instead of a library when you get the ability.

    See my above. It's not for fixing a bad start (you don't get it until Currency), it's for enabling you to plan and settle a productive desert town.

    You're missing the fact that not all desert is created equal. You can get good resources in desert, and desert hills can be mined - Petra makes for good production cities. Desert Natural Wonders also get the bonus, and settling near Natural Wonders is often a trade-off between getting that bonus and landing in unproductive terrain. But probably most importantly, it gives a gold bonus to every desert tile you work, and gold in the early game is in short supply. Also, don't make the mistake of assuming that because it has most effect in cities surrounded by desert, you need to settle only in the middle of deserts with no other tiles.

    But most of all you need to look at it in context. The question is not "What is the best Wonder?", but "What is the best Ancient/Classical Wonder?", so comparisons with other Wonders of the same period are invited. Given the right tiles, it gives you the gold bonus of the Colossus. Plus the effect of a Lighthouse, albeit in desert rather than coastal tiles in both cases. Every desert tile gets +1 production (including that wheat you're using just to feed your people), which has no analogue in other buildings/Wonders at that stage in the game. And this is the early game still, so +1 of each of those is a meaningful bonus that can drastically increase production times, growth and income.

    Oh yes, and on top of that you get a free amphitheater - a very nice nod to the fact that there is a Roman amphitheater in Petra.

    Given the right conditions, there really is no Ancient/Classical Wonder that comes close to Petra in power, and this shouldn't even be in question - where deciding whether it's the best Wonder comes in is in determining how reliably you can exploit it.
     
  18. GAGA Extrem

    GAGA Extrem Emperor

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    Wait, what? Are you sure that wasn't from legalism?
     
  19. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    No, it was only in the city that built Petra, and regardless of whether I had Tradition or Liberalism - moreover I never take Legalism after I have four Monuments, and don't usually have a desert capital.

    But the most telling bit is the phrase "Provides a free amphitheater in the city where it is built" in the description...

    http://www.dndjunkie.com/civilopedia/BUILDING_PETRA.aspx

    EDIT: Ugh, just read the terrible Civilopedia description - which (a) could readily be a lot more detailed and give less prominence to Indy, since a lot is known of Petra's two golden ages, and (b) the references to "the Al Khazneh". You don't need to speak Arabic to be annoyed by the redundancy of "the the Khazneh" - English-language sources using the Arabic name rather than "The Treasury" call it "The Khazneh" or "Al Khazneh".
     
  20. compwiz1202

    compwiz1202 King

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    Yea and with how any other victory seems to drag out now, I almost always wind up going domination at some point, so I don't want to miss the 15% vs cities.
     

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