Best and worst UU/UB?
- Thread starter salty mud
- Start date
reddishrecue
Some dude on civfans
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2009
- Messages
- 6,213
I was thinking gallics. That would've been closer.
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2008
- Messages
- 25,119
The idea is to get GIII regardless of hills, although hills are nice for movement and defense. Another nice thing about GWs is you can build them with copper OR iron, though you do need IW, which makes them not such a good play on Deity and short-lived on IMM. They are fun though. Boudi gets GIII quicker and adds CI as well.
I remembered @AZ played one of those, here is the video:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Chris67132?feature=mhum#p/u/31/HgqieGoKkxQ
Copper or Iron, and can get a worker stealer out of the gate
The 50% retreat chance on G3 is not bad either.
It's all about the fast exping up on some refreshing promos, not just the same old CR etc.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Chris67132?feature=mhum#p/u/31/HgqieGoKkxQ
Copper or Iron, and can get a worker stealer out of the gate
The 50% retreat chance on G3 is not bad either.
It's all about the fast exping up on some refreshing promos, not just the same old CR etc.
LeHam
Prince
I don't get the hate for the feitoria. Custom Houses are always useful in coastal cities and the Feitoria just adds more gold. The stele or assembly plant are worse, in my opinion.
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2008
- Messages
- 25,119
I remembered @AZ played one of those, here is the video:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Chris67132?feature=mhum#p/u/31/HgqieGoKkxQ
Copper or Iron, and can get a worker stealer out of the gate
The 50% retreat chance on G3 is not bad either.
It's all about the fast exping up on some refreshing promos, not just the same old CR etc.
Interestingly, AZ did not seem to use the G line at all in this game. I find it pretty powerful on just about any map...there's usually some hills anyway, but it's G3 that really rocks(and it does not require hills). As I've mentioned, GWs don't do so well on Deity due to the short window (most early UUs don't do well on Deity including the highly overrated Praet), but I think 1 kill or a choke/city grab or two is doable and that can change the state of your game. On IMM though, it is very feasible to take out 1 AI completely and maybe 2 if you play it right or more on certain maps.
GWs are potentially fast moving city attackers with bonus defenses and a withdrawal chance significantly higher than HAs without flank - and just when you thought it didn't get any better, G3 gets a 25% bonus hill attack (very nice against those hill cities). No, they are not top tier, but I'd say they are at least above average to good. And more importantly, very fun to play - and that includes some Dun Archer fun as well. And just think that your C1G3 + CR# GWs will become Mace or Rifles one day.
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2008
- Messages
- 27,989
The part I made bold is where you're wrong:
1. Feitoria adds "commerce", not "gold", and requires you to be working bad tiles. This benefit is only worthwhile if the land quality is awful...which CAN happen, but you still have to wait for it, and
2. Customs house bonuses, for the cost you pay in
to get them, often make the break-even point with simply spending the same on 
last longer than the entirety of the remaining turns in the game.These points do combine to make the thing low-tier, but you are absolutely right that the assembly plant still makes it look good.
Stele is low-to-mid tier. Building it makes it very hard for anyone to culture push you ever without SERIOUS investment into wonders, and it's not an expensive build. Situations where it helps you retain or take some tiles come up fairly routinely. Does that make it GOOD? No, the benefits conferred aren't large. However, it still offers legit benefits and can offer them early, so it really isn't "worst" material. Its contribution to culture wins alone makes it a more valid contributor than the forum/assembly plant/feitoria/etc.
Utenlok
Warlord
I think the Conquistador is seriously underrated. It gets fair odds even against its weakness. They get terrain bonuses and can fortify and defend.
Totem pole is pretty much crap too. You get resourceless axemen so there is little need to make archers in most games. You are going to research Bronze Working anyway for chops and whips. There is a good chance that Hunting and Archery are just a waste of beakers.
Best depends on situation of course, but I think the War Chariot is amazing. You start only one tech from getting horses, and if they are there you already have wheel to hook them up. 5 strength makes em as strong against archers as an axeman, but with double the movement. They eat axes for breakfast, especially those native american ones. Spears can hurt em, but you can strike before many if any spears are built. And they do better against spears than normal chariots.
I think that Ziggs are major over rated too. You are only one tech from CoL at that point. I am gonna research CoL anyways for Civil Service. If I am at Preisthood there is a good chance I am gonna build Oracle and take CoL. I am not saying they are useless, they are alright, but they are completely over rated.
Totem pole is pretty much crap too. You get resourceless axemen so there is little need to make archers in most games. You are going to research Bronze Working anyway for chops and whips. There is a good chance that Hunting and Archery are just a waste of beakers.
Best depends on situation of course, but I think the War Chariot is amazing. You start only one tech from getting horses, and if they are there you already have wheel to hook them up. 5 strength makes em as strong against archers as an axeman, but with double the movement. They eat axes for breakfast, especially those native american ones. Spears can hurt em, but you can strike before many if any spears are built. And they do better against spears than normal chariots.
I think that Ziggs are major over rated too. You are only one tech from CoL at that point. I am gonna research CoL anyways for Civil Service. If I am at Preisthood there is a good chance I am gonna build Oracle and take CoL. I am not saying they are useless, they are alright, but they are completely over rated.
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2008
- Messages
- 27,989
They are. I rate them just behind the top tier UUs and Mylene loves them
.Dogs aren't good against mounted/siege. CG III archers are though.
And yes, WC is top-tier
.Got to disagree with some of these, sorry.
I can't see the Immortal being a best UU and the War Chariot not. If I remember the math, War Chariots do better against ARCHERS than the Immortal and better against everything else. Defensive bonus doesn't make up for that IMO. Also, the Fast Worker didn't make the list. Unless you play Marathon, they have to be included.
Impi as worst? Ahead of Panzer (my choice)? I can think of about a dozen UU's at least that are objectively worse than the Impi, starting with Landcrap.
I like the Salon and Forum more than most, but even I wouldn't count them as a top U B. I'd start with the Courthouse UB's (Zig and Rat) and then go on. I'd only consider Obelisk as great if I'm going AP cheese. Egypt's a great Civ, but that's due to the War Chariot, starting techs and traits.
Worst UB's I can only agree with the Mall. Mausoleum is weak, but not that bad. Dike is vastly overrated but not terrible. Shale Plant is actually quite good - as good as a health resource with extra production - above average UB. Pavilion can be nice for a culture win and some slight use otherwise.
@Utenlok - I agree about War Chariot. I'm constantly surprised how many people rate the Immortal above it. I consider WC one of the top 5 UU's. Sometimes the top.
TMIT - thanks for the analysis of the Dutch UU. I've got to try that!
Addition to a meaningless discussion, because it all depends on the map you're playing.
First, I can't see the difference in unhealthiness between a coal plant versus the shale plant, both give -2 healthiness.
Second, +10 % production isn't significant compared to the raw hammers of a dike.
And the dike comes earlier and it doesn't need a prerequisite.
strijder20
Wallowing in irony
Agreed, I even see that one as one of the stronger UUs in the game, if you can get a serious tech lead. If.
The fortify bonus is always nice, of course.
I have never seen someone seriously underrate it, though.
Those axemen have some rare uses, but not a lot. What are you going to do when your enemy invades you with horse archers + axes? The only thing you can do here is cower in your city with archers and spears (not dog soldiers, those are quite horrible aside from getting them faster anyway).
Ever seen Totem pole + barracks + protective crossbowmen from bulbed Machinery? That's drill 3/ Drill2 and cover right out of the gate. Nothing to laugh at. Although the CKN is still better, you can almost see those crossbows as a second UU for Sitting Bull.
Exactly. Probably one of the strongest UUs in the game if you have horses nearby and are not playing on Emperor +.
What? CoL, unless you bulb/oracle it, is a quite expensive tech. Courthouses are arguably the best buildings in the game (after granaries). The Sumerian replacement is 25% cheaper. They are, in my opinion, the best UB in the game.
Utenlok
Warlord
Conquistadors never get mentioned, I may have misspoke to say under rated, but since I never see them talked about I assumed they are getting no love.
Native America starts with fishing so you cant do the bulb exploit with them. Thus you only get xbows a touch early.
The time from Priesthood to CoL is so short even if you wait and trade that I still cant see that being anything more than ok. I have played with them before and every time I already have CoL by the time I can actually build or actually need the courthouses.
Native America starts with fishing so you cant do the bulb exploit with them. Thus you only get xbows a touch early.
The time from Priesthood to CoL is so short even if you wait and trade that I still cant see that being anything more than ok. I have played with them before and every time I already have CoL by the time I can actually build or actually need the courthouses.
Archon_Wing
Vote for me or die
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2005
- Messages
- 5,255
Yea, I won't be saying no to a cuirassier that isn't weak to pikes and can fortify.
As for zigs, well that would mean CoL isn't that high of a priority and you can trade/grab other stuff like monarchy or currency first while still enjoying the benefits. Then when you finally want it, it will be an easy trade by that time. The cost to setup courthouses isn't trivial at that point in the game.
As for zigs, well that would mean CoL isn't that high of a priority and you can trade/grab other stuff like monarchy or currency first while still enjoying the benefits. Then when you finally want it, it will be an easy trade by that time. The cost to setup courthouses isn't trivial at that point in the game.
With a Shale Plant, you get the unhealth from having a power plant, but you don't get extra unhealth from Coal. You have the ability to trade away Coal (if you have oil for Rails) although that's obviously dangerous in some situations. And if, somehow, you don't have Coal it works. And I'll take the 10'% if you don't want it.
The problem with the Dike is that water tiles are the tiles you want to work last. Almost any land tile is better than water tiles. That's actually the real problem. It isn't that the Dike is a bad UB at all, it's just that it often isn't terrific. It's a pretty good UB on Archipelago where you're forced to work water tiles. Dike is probably slightly ahead of the Shale Plant. The Dike sounds terrific but isn't as great in practice. It's still a pretty good UB.
While I agre there are better UUs than the phalanx, they are by no means close to worst, since they essentially mean you don't have to build spears. There is only one unit that is a true counter to the axeman and that is the chariot (on attack only). It gets the normal Axe bonus, plus it is a 5
unit with 100% vs chariots (the only counter). This means its effectively a better spearman than your spearman!!.You can assault AI lands with impunity if they have horses and not care about chariots hitting you at all. If you are Alex, so much the better since they start with C1
Archon_Wing
Vote for me or die
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2005
- Messages
- 5,255
Phalanx only get a 100% bonus when attacked by chariots; it only negates the chariot's attack vs axe bonus. When a phalanx attacks a chariot, it's the same as a regular axe. Thus spears are still better vs chariots than a phalanx is. But because of its special ability, Phalanx become kind of a soft counter to chariots as they always have the advantage now, especially if they use terrain.
But yea, the bottom line is you don't have to care about spears.
But yea, the bottom line is you don't have to care about spears.
Similar threads
