1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Best and worst UU/UB?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by salty mud, Oct 27, 2011.

  1. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

    Joined:
    May 19, 2006
    Messages:
    13,818
    Location:
    Lisbon, Portugal
    Yup, pretty much that. Notice that I didn't said to not use siege ( for heavens sake , what would be of Civ IV wars without siege ? :D ), I just said that if you lose 4 cats in average per conquered city, you might have problems in getting the AI to think that you are winning the war. That is diferent of saying that if you are in a situation where you can clean out the enemy stacks you should quit if you get to 4 lost cats :p It is, as always, a matter of tradeoffs ...

    What I was talking against is the reflexive and automated manner that I've seen a lot of people ( definitely not you :D ) to use siege like automated combat does: siege first until there is no siege left ( or siege can't attack due to redlining ) then the rest. That is a very wasteful way of warring, but I've seen Imm/Deity players doing that ...


    Yup, it was a very specific situation, but again, I only used it as a example that you can make the AI willing ( or unwilling to talk ) faster by the manipulation of WS scores.

    The peace deals are NOT exclusively linked to WS, OFC ( I never said that ). I read that part of the code 2 years ago, so my memory is hazy, but yes, comparative power is a major drive in that. Oh and cities IIRC are a really bad gauge on peace deals: typically you need 60-80 WS per city even if you have a huge power disparity ( had a lot of those situations in RR13 ) , depending OFC of the value of the cities (nuking or starving the target city helps a lot ) ... for some reason the devs wanted that the AI would be more willing to enter in a almost impossible to get rid slave relation than to lose one pop 10 city :/
     
  2. civvver

    civvver Deity

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2007
    Messages:
    5,854
    I won't just launch all my siege with reckless abandon. Actually what you'll notice is often the siege weapon fails to hurt the top defender very much but does nice collateral to all the rest. Then it's better to send one regular unit to really knock down that top guy, then continue with the siege. Like say a cannon vs 5 protective rifles. The top rifle may be left at 13 hp sometimes while the next 4 get knocked down to 10. Now you can bring a cavalry with flanking for a survival rate of ~60%. He probably won't win but has a high chance to retreat and knocking that top rifle down to a more manageable 10ish hp. Now let loose the rest of the cannons and they will fare much better.

    Generally I'll attack with siege until my regular units are above 75% if my siege are still around 50%, otherwise if the siege is still getting good odds like 65% for a cannon vs 85% for the cavalry I'll keep going and do a mop up after.
     
  3. mtr12

    mtr12 Prince

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2008
    Messages:
    596
    Worst UB: Dun

    Walls are pretty terrible anyways, the only reason I would ever consider building them was if I was Protective and was going to skip Econ/Corp, build Castles everywhere instead, and instead rush State Property and run an EE. Hell, this isn't even good on Charlemagne because his Rauthaus synergizes with Corps, so he shouldn't use SP.

    Unfortunately, none of the Celts are Protective.
     
  4. obsolete

    obsolete Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2005
    Messages:
    6,201
    Location:
    Planet Earth
    Well, I knew that years ago...

    And too stupid to even fix some of the basics after all this time...
     
  5. MilesBeyond

    MilesBeyond Prince

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Messages:
    432
    Surprised there hasn't been more hate for the Musketeer, never found any use for it in my games as the French. Musketmen are short-lived as is, and an extra movement doesn't make them all that special.

    Though I always played France as Louis going for Culture. I guess they could be useful if Napoleon's on the offence, as they're basically mounted units that can ignore walls and benefit from defence bonuses. That would almost make them like an early Mech. Infantry. Hmmm. Worth trying out, maybe?
     
  6. AJ11

    AJ11 Emperor

    Joined:
    May 13, 2011
    Messages:
    1,013
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    2 reasons:

    1. Lightning strikes. They keep up with cavalry type units, allowing you to have a stack defender for which there is no counter in its era. So, you can raid, capture and raze faster than people requiring normal 1 move defenders.

    2. Draft and plug. This is for when you are in Nationalism, in a defensive war and are under heavy attack. You draft from multiple cities and rush the units to the besieged city. 2 moves allow you to draft from cities further away (particularly if connected by roads), giving you more options and a stronger defence.
     
  7. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    25,716
    These are both valid reasons. I will add a 3rd:

    3. Their value over a basic unit (based on above) is better than "almost useless". Put another way, there are plenty of absolutely terrible UUs (Ballista elephant, Panzer, SEAL, Landcrap (better than the first 3, much worse than musketeer)).

    I would argue its ahead of guys like the bowman, camel archer, etc also, which makes it a middle-tier UU, not a bottom tier UU. 2 moves has a lot of utility that one doesn't always remember on these boards. Sometimes you want a unit to kill something and return to the stack. Sometimes you want a legit defender at the front sooner (and there aren't many 2 movers with defensive bonuses, a reason the conq is fairly high). Just because they're terrible when thrown headlong against defensive bonuses doesn't mean they're bad overall.

    In MP, if one makes it to gunpowder, they are actually dangerous for forking, choking, etc as they don't have any previous era hard counters and ignore walls/castles. Humans can't afford 5-10 units/city + a stack like the high level AI. These guys are actually scary, especially in the hands of someone who knows a thing or two about terrain specific promotion usage.

    I suspect AJ11 rates them a bit more highly than some others due to marathon actually giving unconventional units some time to shine, but musketeers are plenty viable on pretty much every difficulty/speed except high-level quick in terms of usage potential (war on quick is a nightmare in general, and actual windows of opportunity are very small). Probably won't see much in the way of offensive wars w/ them on deity normal, but they still might have a use over the base unit, which puts them ahead of the woofers even then.
     
  8. civvver

    civvver Deity

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2007
    Messages:
    5,854
    Ah TMIT mentions the bowman. Bowmen are one of the best AI UU's and one of the worst for a human. Try axe rushing Hammurabi on hills. It sucks.
     
  9. Bad Brett

    Bad Brett King

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2002
    Messages:
    828
    I can't really decide which the best ones are, but I do have my favourites (as in the ones I enjoy building the most):

    Baray I Probably like it because the +1 :food: is something that is really difficult to get early in the game. Also, it turns a "meh" building into a really useful one. It can be incredibly useful in production cities.

    The best unit is probably the Fast Worker, though I find it a bit boring to use. Other candidates are the Numedian Cavalry, the War Chariot and the Cho-Ko-Nu.

    I don't understand why some people list the dog soldier as a good unit, because I've never managed to be successful with them on higher difficulty levels (normal speed).

    Worst? I'd say the Navy Seal. I mean come on. March promotion? Marines are supposed to be transported on ships or defending cities. Seriously, does anyone actually use them when fighting land wars? So why on earth would you need the march promotion? Extra strikes can be nice, but 1-2 won't make a big difference in this case.

    The Ballista Elephant can at least sometimes be a life-saver when Shaka shows up with his stack containing 30 knights and 15 pikemen. :)
     
  10. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    25,716
    Comically, skirms are still better. But the real problem with bowmen is they don't block pillaging and have nothing to say to siege.

    March lets you heal immediately after attacking, which gives it some utility for SEALS as the #units you need to always be attacking with a healthy guy (especially with a GG medic) is reduced bigtime. They also get extra first strikes (making them significantly better at holding defensive positioning), and in modern IIRC you spawn with them so they have some marginal land utility there :p.

    The problem with them is that they come so late and their bonus just isn't enough to offset that. It is, however, enough to put them ahead of the panzer, which comes even LATER and with an even MORE marginal bonus :p.
     
  11. obsolete

    obsolete Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2005
    Messages:
    6,201
    Location:
    Planet Earth
    You should try against a HUMAN opponent, and you'll see how quick the reason that Sitting Bull is banned in many online games (at least when in close proximity).
     
  12. Mylene

    Mylene Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2011
    Messages:
    4,000
    Location:
    Pangea
    Doesn't have to be vs. human, i'd take them for barb defense on Deity any day instead of teching archery or hoping for copper.
     
  13. HorribleHarald

    HorribleHarald Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2010
    Messages:
    132
    Worst UB: Dun and obelisk,
    it would be better if dun gives free guerilla bonus for melee units too but perhaps gallic warrior will then be OP with two guerillas?
    Obelisk is just a crap, usually you can use priests quite quickly when you get religion and priesthood, even monument for charismatic player is better.

    Best UB: Terrace and Salon,
    they give so much cultural pressure, and Dike is good too. It's like later Moais but I can be builded every coastal and river cities.
     
  14. ajsciri4

    ajsciri4 Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2011
    Messages:
    156
    Best UU: Foreign Legion
    Best UB: Paper Maker

    Worst UU: Jaguar
    Worst UB: not quite sure
     
  15. strijder20

    strijder20 Wallowing in irony

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2010
    Messages:
    5,047
    Location:
    In Dystopia
    Uhm, we are in the Civ4 forum here :lol:
     
  16. strijder20

    strijder20 Wallowing in irony

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2010
    Messages:
    5,047
    Location:
    In Dystopia
    What? Obelisk worst UB and Salon best?
    You will pollute GP pools with the GA. It's not that much cultural pressure. You won't flip a city with it, and cultural pressure is usually not that much of a problem.
    Obelisk allows you a lot of bulb possibilities! A settled GP early on isn't something to say no against either.
     
  17. ajsciri4

    ajsciri4 Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2011
    Messages:
    156
    Oops sorry, I've been switching between iv and v... I get mad at the combat system and four and switch to five, then I get mad about everything else in five and switch to four.
     
  18. The Wimp

    The Wimp Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2011
    Messages:
    62
    Location:
    Cambridge, Ontario, Canada
    best uu: cossack
    best ub: hamam
     
  19. Ghpstage

    Ghpstage Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2009
    Messages:
    2,944
    Location:
    Bristol, England
    Obelisk is a very early, very cheap source of GPP. 30:hammers: for 2 spec slots at Mysticism is much better than waiting for Priesthood, needing 2 religions and then spending 80:hammers: on 2 Spiritual Temples to match it....

    It may obsolete and is quite limited in scope, but it can pretty much win games by itself.
     
  20. Iranon

    Iranon Deity Whipping Boy

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,214
    Location:
    Germany
    Obelisk is hard to judge. Maybe the most likely UB to be 100% useless (assuming your games reach the modern era - not a given.), but the one most relevant to a dedicated Apostolic Palace attempt which is a strong if not very satisfying approach.

    I'm a little surprised the Dun gets so many votes. Compared to Totem Poles:
    Both come on a situational and obsoletable but cheap building.
    A promotion that unlocks useful ones is worth more than 2xp.
    Likely to be relevant for a longer time because it benefits Musketmen and possibly Grenadiers.
     

Share This Page