yung.carl.jung
Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious
How is Lain pretentious? I've seen this argument a million times but no one ever gives a reason for it. Especially as someone who loves NGE.. I don't get how you can "love" episode 23/24/25 and yet say Lain is the more pretentious anime. Seems profoundly weird to me. Either way, looking forward to hear your opinion. NGE is one of my holy grails.
Because 23/24/25 is less than 12/13 episodes? That, and NGE is a "deconstruction".
yung.carl.jung
Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious
Umm, what? What does "less episodes" have to do with anything?
What I wanted to say is that the last few episodes of EVA are very abstract, yet no one calls them pretentious, while people call Lain pretentious all of the time. I also don't really think EVA is a deconstruction, maybe a disection is what you mean? maybe it's a deconstruction of mecha anime, but that would be a very, very surface-level reading of EVA. I think @haroon mostly got it right when he said that EVA is mostly about Lacanian psychology/Self-Realization/Libidinal Economy.
But in a less abstract sense EVA is about: What constitutes "me", or "myself"? What is existance? What is right or wrong? What is consciousness? It also borrows heavily from the existantialists (like Kierkegaard), from Schopenhauer (one episode is named after him), from Freud and of course from Christian and Jewish symbols. In that way I think it is very similair to Lain.
Still, you have completely dodged my question. What is pretentious in Lain?
PhroX
Deity
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Lain is a show that (as I believe I mentioned earlier in this thread several years ago) that I quite liked, and could certainly appreciate that it was complex and intelligent, but wouldn't put anywhere near an all time great as it never really got me quite interested enough to get to the point where I "got" it.
A few months ago though, I saw a comment on it which made me understand why I felt this way as opposed to rating it really highly. I certainly do have room for some deep complex anime in my life (even if my general taste runs more towards just sheer entertainment), but I like there to be a coherent surface level story which I can get into as a starting point and explore the depth from there. Lain doesn't have this. It's all deep. It's all complex. It's all abstract. There's nothing to actually get me interested enough to start really exploring it further. Compare to something like Revolutionary Girl Utena (or indeed EVA), which also has a hell of a lot of depth, complexity, symbolism (oh god, the symbolism....) etc. but still has the basic story of the title character's growing relationship with Anthy and her conflict with the student council to get me hooked so I can then start looking beyond that story.
A few months ago though, I saw a comment on it which made me understand why I felt this way as opposed to rating it really highly. I certainly do have room for some deep complex anime in my life (even if my general taste runs more towards just sheer entertainment), but I like there to be a coherent surface level story which I can get into as a starting point and explore the depth from there. Lain doesn't have this. It's all deep. It's all complex. It's all abstract. There's nothing to actually get me interested enough to start really exploring it further. Compare to something like Revolutionary Girl Utena (or indeed EVA), which also has a hell of a lot of depth, complexity, symbolism (oh god, the symbolism....) etc. but still has the basic story of the title character's growing relationship with Anthy and her conflict with the student council to get me hooked so I can then start looking beyond that story.
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So I guess you could say that you are more of a Lame Serials Expert?
Joking, I actually gave up on SEL twice and never saw all of it.
yung.carl.jung
Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious
see, now this is something I can completely understand and respect. because what you say is true, lain completely lacks a coherent surface level plot. if anything it's a kind of weird, repetitive slice of life with different realities and timelines. there is a plot, but you have to work hard to even find it, and it's completely understandable that not everyone likes that.
weak
3 episodes of pretentiousness is less than 12/13 episodes of pretentiousness? Not necessarily, granted, but as a baseline...
I'm calling them pretentious. Not all of the time - at the time they appear - which is at a time when them being pretentious is glorious and sweet and the apotheosis of the genre underpinning the whole endeavour. In Lain it's just background noise. More background noise, that is (*hmmmmm*).
It deconstructs with pretentious tools, sure.
Probably the same as in NGE, tbh.
PhroX
Deity
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EVA is definitely a deconstruction of the mecha genre - there's a lot of critique of genre tropes in there - but it's also a lot more than just that and that's why it works well and remains popular. Hell, I'd doubt if 10% of EVA fans have even seen any of the shows it's critiquing, especially as post-EVA mecha shows typically actually do take on board the criticism present in it (along with some other critical shows of the same era such as the brilliant and sadly seemingly forgotten Martian Successor Nadesico). Although some of the meaning people read into it at times probably isn't meant to be there. For example, I'm pretty sure I remember reading interviews in which Ano stated that the frequent use of Judeo-Christian iconography is based mainly on the team thinking it looked cool rather than them actually trying to draw any parallels with said religion.
Given that the books of the Gospel are in the very title (that is what Evangelion means; though more generally it means "a joyous message"), I suppose they had made that choice early on 
And here's Neon (ana)Genesis Byzantion:
And here's Neon (ana)Genesis Byzantion:
yung.carl.jung
Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious
ah yes, thanks for sincerely for your defensive non-answers. I'll know in the future not to ask.
I don't really think you need to know any of the previous mecha anime to understand what EVA is trying to say. yes, as we established EVA is also a deconstruction of the mecha genre, but that's just one facet. I also wholly agree that the whole Christian/Judean symbolism was done for aesthetic mostly. Anyway, the concepts EVA deals in are almost universal across human history/culture so they could have gone with anything really. I have seen some mecha, but not Nadesico, I'll have a look! thanks
Given that the books of the Gospel are in the very title (that is what Evangelion means; though more generally it means "a joyous message"), I suppose they had made that choice early on
spoilers!
The idea of mixing cultural beliefs (Christianity, Judaism, Mythology) together with technology/science (Dirac Sea, Pribnow Box etc.) is more than just aesthetic, because it is represented throughout the entire show. Just consider the EVAs themselves, who are clearly a product of science, but also are actual lifeforms as opposed to robots, born from adam/lilith and literally endowed with the soul of the pilot's mother. EVA's subversion of culture&faith with tech and science is meaningful, though as I posted above the explicit decision to use christian symbology as opposed to say.. buddhist, was mostly aesthetic.
H4run
Deity
Given that the books of the Gospel are in the very title (that is what Evangelion means; though more generally it means "a joyous message"), I suppose they had made that choice early on
And here's Neon (ana)Genesis Byzantion:
I just woke up and Kyriakos made me watch this, dang what a video to start a day
PhroX
Deity
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To be clear with Nadesico, it's a very different type of show than EVA - whereas the latter critiques the genre by deconstructing the tropes, the former does it by ripping the piss out of them: it's an spoof, primarily of the Gundam/Macross style "real robot" shows, but the show within a show "GEKIGANGAR 3" has a go at the Mazinger/Getter style "super robot" shows too (the latter being the main target of EVA). I put it alongside EVA for two main reasons - firstly, they came out pretty close to each other with similar issues regarding the genre, and secondly because both stand perfectly well as shows in their own right even without really knowing about what they're critiquing. Nasdesico is a well written, fun, relatively light hearted mecha based space opera and you can take it as nothing more than that. But some of the jokes and situations might well be even funnier if you know mecha shows from the late seventies to the early nineties.
H4run
Deity
To be precise, like Xenogears (which I think you know the game and I think Xenogears is made out of EVA), they took a lot from Kabbalah mysticism, I don't believe if it's only accessorial.
Ano may have stated that there is no special meaning in the symbolism, however to say that there is a profound meaning would be projected in a Japanese society as he is being cocky, it may just be his courtesy for being humble in front of his viewer and critics, I'm not really taking what he meant literally, he would never said his work is profound it's the viewer and criticis the one who should said that.
Certainly beyond accessorial usage there is a valid mysticism at play especially in the last episodes, where from one comes the many, so do the many would come back to one (in the form of Jungian collective consciousness).
My conclusion is that, Jung must play Xenogears.
warpus
In pork I trust
I've only ever seen parts of Cowboy Bebop and Lain: Serial Experiments.
Lain drew me in right away and I sat there watching the whole series almost right away. It's a show that made me ask questions and I've seen some episodes since.. and noticed things I didn't notice before. Layers.. Usually signs of a good well thought out story.
I found cowboy bepop weird and it didn't draw me in at all *shrug*. I've been told it's really good.. but.. I also connected with Lain because I can relate to her. That's probably by design, but it really worked in my case
Lain drew me in right away and I sat there watching the whole series almost right away. It's a show that made me ask questions and I've seen some episodes since.. and noticed things I didn't notice before. Layers.. Usually signs of a good well thought out story.
I found cowboy bepop weird and it didn't draw me in at all *shrug*. I've been told it's really good.. but.. I also connected with Lain because I can relate to her. That's probably by design, but it really worked in my case
H4run
Deity
It's a short anime, it's first started as pieces of puzzle, before it gradually regroup itself into a clear picture, hence it's quite natural if you find it weird in the beginning, you just have to keep on watching few more before it finally find its charm.
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warpus
In pork I trust
Unfortunately my busy life prevents me from stretching out my entertainment time like this. I got downvoted heavily for saying that I hated Star Wars: Rebels, and that I gave it a chance by watching the first 2 episodes. Apparently fanboys think that 2 episodes is not enough and that "the show gets better, just keep watching". Yeah, no, I don't have time. If a show doesn't grab me by the first 2-4 episodes, I move on. Ain't got no time to watch shows I don't like
H4run
Deity
I get your point though, but I must say the first episode already pretty much caught me on, but later on it just get better. To each his own I guess.
warpus
In pork I trust
I bet I'll find time to give this show another chance when I'm older. But ya, there's so much to watch and do..
