Best Ball Immortal: Mansa

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession Games' started by Compromise, Feb 9, 2007.

  1. Compromise

    Compromise Emperor

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    I'd like to comment on this: I think you are exactly right but that in this case, it makes the most sense to proceed as Atlas suggested.

    You are right in that the best course of play relies on information that isn't available at the time you need to choose that course of play. If we knew where all the AI capitals and strategic resources were, our course of action could be much more clearly defined. In fact, this points out the limit of the "best ball" (a la golf) analogy. In golf, the goal is clear from the moment you step to the tee so it's easy to judge whose shot is the best.

    Here, it's as if there are many possible places where the hole is, so if you play the multi-threaded approach (a la mutineer, and what we're going to do here), then it does remove the ambiguity: Who would judge the shot to the left as best when it turns out that the hole is to the right?

    This is exactly why I wanted to stop play before any strategic resources were revealed. However, in fact every turn reveals valuable information: where are the AIs, where are the huts. And not all of that information is static: If someone pops a great tech or defeats a barb, then their turnset is better even if someone else adopted a better pre-diceroll strategy. That's judging by outcome rather than by strategy, and it's something I really hoped to avoid.

    However, this thread drew about twice as many starting turnsets as I'd expected. And I was already worried about choosing from amongst them with just 4 or 5 expected. How do you do that when there is sincere disagreement about the best route? My initial plan was to accept and choose, disregarding dissension. But that's pretty alienating. For example, note mutineer's unorthodox start and his desire to continue it further. I'm curious to see how it turns out, even though I judge Atlas' start to be better.

    Also, note that at the time I made the decision to go to the multi-threaded approach, I was the only person to actually cast votes on any other saves. (To be fair, it was before my suggested deadline, and Atlas did offer opinions on other saves.)

    I think the truly best way to do this would be to have, say, 4 people. 3 of them try the strategy that makes the most sense to them. They then post report which include no spoiler information at all, just guidelines. Maybe they say something to each other about how big their cities are and how far their tech is. Then, a discussion ensues and a "best strategy" is decided. The 4th person, not knowing any details about any of the turnsets runs from the starting point to the endpoint using the strategy that the others have distilled from their efforts.

    Even that way isn't perfect. How do you choose when to stop? What do you do about disagreements, especially if not even 2 people agree about some facet? And the logistics of distilling all of these opinions into a consensus is probably less fun than actually playing the game and trying things out.

    I think there really is no perfect way to learn from others, but then I don't think the process needs to be perfect to be immensely helpful.

    I think I've already improved my start-of-game thinking as a result of the posts so far. In addition to Atlas and Kodii doing better jobs at the same start I was attempting, Voice pointed out some details in my own approach and Blake and mutineer have presented interesting starts that simply didn't occur to me.

    Maybe we'll try another thread soon where we do actually choose a single save and go for it. I would like to try this.

    Given the necessary amount of spoiler information and random results that arise with every turnset, we'll never be able to truly compare apples to apples. I agree with Atlas' thought: right now any reasonable condition--time or event--is fine.
     
  2. Atlas

    Atlas Titanus

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    Having played my turns and reflected a bit more on them I think that after this round we will "might" be able to vote. I could be wrong, but I think that city placement, size, # of units and workers will start making different peoples openings easier to choose from- thus easier to vote on.
     
  3. Compromise

    Compromise Emperor

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    Can someone point me to the link(s) of threads with the standard mapsize distance/number-of-cities costs and the Immortal handicaps for the human and the AI? I'd like to add those to the reference post. (I'll do some searches and find them if necessary, but thought someone here might already have them linked somewhere.)
     
  4. Mutineer

    Mutineer Deity

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    OK, played my next short turnset.

    Research went Bronse working
    Revolted to slavery.
    Because I intent to whipe first settler, I need to revolt as soon as posible.
    - Hunting - animal husbentry (1)
    Logic behind:
    We have food tie in capital which need animal husbentry.
    If there are no hourses in capital, then I go archery. If there are, I can delay archery for a little bit more in favor of mysticism, for obelisks.
    Spoiler :

    If I beat toky to second city, very early Axe rush his capital would be a good option. If he is our only neybor, and so far I did not meat any one else crippling him ASAP is essential.


    Here I stop as conditions of our turns, but if we ever want to compare turn, we need to choise some fihed data.

    Prodiction went workboat-warrior-warrior-warrior-warrior(2)
    It is 2560 BC
    Capital size 3, producing 8, (up to 12) shields/turn.
    I have net + 3 mines + 3 roads around capital. Do not underestimate roads, as they provide easy movement for units around.

    Scout around looking for next city spot. Currently my warriors exploring it, but I would have to beat Toky to it, if I can.

    CapitaL:


    Save:
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/84898/Immortal_Ball_BC-2560.Civ4SavedGame

    A bit of runt.

    In my expirience with multitreaded or best ball aproaches each has big weekneses.
    Weakness of best ball is two:
    People tend to decide think not compitly base on strategies or even actial position but on:

    1) Familarity. Typically acepted strategies will get choisen mach more often, because they are familiar and accepted in forums. My original strats got ignored for long time. Only after Immortal no cottagess game my FE economy was accepted in forums, befor all cottagis were lauthin on me when I was saying that one should really build cottages mach late and that financial trait is weekest, in my believe.

    2) Ateempt to placate people. Weekes position will get choised simply because to prevent some to feel like they are left behind and not contributed.

    This are 2 pitofals of best ball. In my opinion phicologically it is undestandable, but bad if intent is to learn and explore different starts.

    So, I invent multitreaded aproach. When each can continue any other save.
    This aproach show it's problems and strong side if there are people who can get over phycology and try to learn.

    1) People get discuraged if there line fail and tend to liave then play other people save. Phycologically undestandable, but make it dificult to maintain participation.

    2) Save deverge mach because of differetn AI decisions and this decisions are not complytly depended on humans. This is good and bad. Good because it let see different actions AI could have take and there consiquences.
    Bad because it make saves even less comparatable strategy point of view. But if you analise deeper it is good, because if let you see all intricasies of posible actions and there potential results.

    end of my BB SG is very informative, as the more AI survive, the easy for human to win diplomatically, when in my save I have biggest land, strongest economy, but I would probably loose to space.

    End of runt
     
  5. Compromise

    Compromise Emperor

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    @mutineer: Very good insights; thank you for posting them!

    Just so that I'm clear, FE = Farm Economy. I.e., one based on specialist-generated research rather than cottages?
     
  6. Mutineer

    Mutineer Deity

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    yes. FE = farm economy
     
  7. theGrimm

    theGrimm Reaper Man

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    Just tossing a thought into the pot here as a lurker, but we've all seen how heavily luck, good or bad, can influence a game, especially on higher difficulty levels.

    Perhaps you could elect ahead of time to throw out any excessively lucky or unlucky turns, lest they subtly affect your decisions regarding the best result. Similarly, you might want to consider throwing out blind gambles whether they pay off or not.

    With this multithreaded approach, I suggest very (un)lucky threads be terminated where they stand.

    Popping a major tech from a hut, popping a strategic resource that you wouldn't otherwise have, losing a key high odds battle in your favour...these are all things which could occur in a typical game, but which won't contribute as much to the overall understanding of how to play a Immortal game.

    /relurk
     
  8. angeleyes

    angeleyes mood indigo

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    I've played your 4000 BC save as an experiment for myself till i settled my second city, than read the starts and comments of you guys, and i love the discussion. I would like to take part in this thread and get my own start criticed, but i understand if you feel you have enough players already :).
     
  9. Mutineer

    Mutineer Deity

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    teh Grimm, Idea of correct strategy is to be luck independed.

    yearly exploration start insted of grow with purpouse to explore as mach as posible and pick as many hats as posible is a valid one, even on higher levels.
    Build one first scout is a valid start and poping up a good tech is logical result.
    One does need to start with civ with hanting then. For warrior starting civ it is less effective. In my believe warrior starting civ need to concentrate on self development initially.

    How, depends on starting position.
    For example, if we had 3 shields tie in fat cross (plain forest tie) I would have choisen different aproach.
    I would had building workers untill discovery of fishing and then switch to boat forking 3 shield tie and finish worker after fishboat, working sea tie.
    Then worker would mine something when my city grow to size 2.

    It was still valid way here, working just plain hill. But in that case option to finish worker first become valid, and I decided to choise it in order to improve ties faster. we can mine and build roads form the start.
     
  10. Atlas

    Atlas Titanus

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    Well I won't speak for everyone, but If you post your turnset IN spoiler tags I will give you my thoughts on it, for what those are worth :lol:
     
  11. theGrimm

    theGrimm Reaper Man

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    Making your own luck, eh? Fair enough.

    I just think you should avoid building a strategy on a stroke of luck that isn't likely to ever be repeatable in an immortal game. Nothing like that has happened, yet, though, so I'll just shut up and watch :lol:
     
  12. Compromise

    Compromise Emperor

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    Blake, I want to try the second turnset from your start, but I don't see it posted. If you get a chance, could you post it? Otherwise, I'll try to replicate the strategy from the 4000BC starting save.
     
  13. Blake

    Blake The AI Guy

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    Here you go (3000BC)
     

    Attached Files:

  14. Mutineer

    Mutineer Deity

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    About why i did not use workers actions to chop.

    Chopint could be used for fast settler or rushing wander.
    At the time I did not found cooper yet, or any other good site to settle, so, there was no any point to speed settler.
    I would like to keep forest for a wander, I probably will go after quick Oracle, in not after extrimelly early axe rush. I have not decided yet, as I do not have enogth information yet about what is around, is there any marble/stone, will I be able to grab cooper site befor Toky now I know where cooper is?
     
  15. Mutineer

    Mutineer Deity

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    Compromise, I do not see your own next set.
     
  16. Atlas

    Atlas Titanus

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    Or anyone else's for that matter. Looks like on you and I played the second set thus far.
     
  17. Compromise

    Compromise Emperor

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    I'm playing off of Blake's initial set, and I should post later today or tomorrow at the latest. (I'm up in SGOTM3.)
     
  18. sunrise089

    sunrise089 Not that good

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    I will also try to have a second turnset up by tomorrow night. Tonight would be an ideal goal, but I do have a girlfriend, and playing Civ on Valentine's day is a little suicidal.
     
  19. Compromise

    Compromise Emperor

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    Like sunrise, RL is interfering with Civ time. Bad day for it. We'll see how many 2nd turnsets we get by Thu or Fri.

    Happy V-Day all! :heart:
     
  20. Compromise

    Compromise Emperor

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    I abandoned my first effort and decided to try further from Blake's start.

    I scouted a little further with the north warrior and the scout. The latter promptly got trounced by an archer, but all three of the other warriors made their way back to mountains near home.

    I continued a skirmisher build while finishing Mysticism. Then, I started a worker and went for Animal Husbandry. I must confess that it took a lot of willpower not to try for Bronzeworking, if only for the whipping possibilities.

    Founded the second city in 2000BC at a high (potential) production site down south. Bronzeworking is being researched. Timbuktu is garrisoned by a skirmisher while another skirmisher looks over the new city site.

    After AH, I got Bronzeworking and started another worker after the first settler. I've got a turn or two into Pottery right now.

    Total units: 2 skirmishers, 3 warriors, 1 worker.

    Inside the spoiler tags are shots of both cities. I guess it probably doesn't need to be in spoiler tags, but I'll keep it there for right now.

    Spoiler :

    Here's the capital in 2000BC:

    It's quite the little production site with a mined grassland hill and horses.

    And the second city:

    This one too should become quite the production site, though it needs a border pop to really come into its own. With an obelisk due in just 8T while working the plains hill forest, that won't be long. In the meantime, its location clears quite a big of fog and permits a warrior and a skirmisher to move to nearby hills to continue clearing.


    http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/89548/Compromise_Immortal_Ball_BC-2000SecondCity.Civ4SavedGame

    Right now, we have second turnsets from Atlas, Compromise and Mutineer with sunrise089 planning to submit one soon. Are there any other second turnsets in the works?
     

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