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Best Beliefs for a War Relegion?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by kamex, Sep 25, 2012.

  1. kamex

    kamex Emperor

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    A religion you could spread to your opponents like an infection and use to help you crush them!? :D

    I'm thinking: God of War, for faith generation when fighting near 'infected' enemy city,
    Either Church Property or CB for to support a growing empire,
    Holy warriors to help spam units to attack with,
    :) from either shrines or temples (no religious building as that would compete with holy warriors,
    and of course Just War.

    Has anybody tried something like this? How does it play?
     
  2. Peng Qi

    Peng Qi Emperor

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    God of War gives exceptionally small amounts of faith, and I don't think it's ever worth it.

    I once randomly hit a religion as the Huns thanks to lucky huts, and had a great deal of success with the following:

    God of the Open Sky (Simply due to having Animal Husbandry from turn 1; pick whatever's appropriate for your start)
    Ceremonial Burial (Critical for keeping happiness under control during warmongering sprees)
    Asceticism (Probably would have picked Religious Center but someone already had it; puppets will build Shrines and, if you're in Piety, will build them extremely quickly and early)
    Religious Texts (Honestly the self-spamming +1 Happy per city was more useful to me than Just War would have been; plus I didn't want to spend many resources on missionaries since I wanted to spend faith on units instead; I don't think Just War synergizes very well with Holy Warriors)
    Holy Warriors (I picked Holy Warriors after Asceticism because in my experience the AI never picks it, whereas they do sometimes pick Asceticism)
     
  3. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    I only used it once, but faith healers was better to me than I thought it was going to be.
     
  4. Gucumatz

    Gucumatz JS, secretly Rod Serling

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    Faith Healers is an amazing pantheon for warmongering as others have mentioned. It allows for an extra 30 hp healed per turn near cities allowing you to rapidly take a city - and full heal all of your units in just 2 turns to continue fighting quickly.

    For Air Repair bombers its amazing too. 50 hp healed a turn ^ Yes please. Only problem is if you infect other peoples cities with your religion then they could also benefit from faith healers. Depends on how good a blitzkrieger you are to use it to its maximum
     
  5. qyll

    qyll Prince

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    Faith healers is decent. But, really, you don't even need that to win wars. Just get God of Messengers or something for the tech boost instead. The happiness beliefs (ceremonial burial, asceticism, and the other +2 happiness from temples) are the best ones for a puppet empire.
     
  6. kamex

    kamex Emperor

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    This is my concern with faith healers. Does it only benefit tiles adjacent to the city or all city tiles?
     
  7. Aaron90495

    Aaron90495 King

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    Your unit has to be fortified on an adjacent tile; units in a city will not get the bonus.
     
  8. Crafty Bison

    Crafty Bison King

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    God of War - I've been able to make it work. You really have to go looking for troble though - Find the one with the biggest army and plant a city right next to them.

    Faith healers - It's a pantheon so acts like a follower once the religion takes hold. This means your enemies get the bonus too. Abusable in sp but not good for mp without tight spread controls, and you want to war.

    Just war - Have tried a few times to make this work, unsuccessful. I tried with Byzantium so I could get a spread belief as well, but nothing I tried worked quicker than my army. Possibly only for other vcs that have a lot of war eg. aztecs?
     
  9. kamex

    kamex Emperor

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    This is what I was thinking. I may try it with Mongols... imagine how fast 'infected' CS could b destroyed!!!:devil:

    China with a GG might be good also.

    I'm not by any means saying that this overall strategy would be competitive with the standard tall / wide / ICS, just thought it may be fun. I really want to use an effective enhancer that isn't Texts or Preachers.
     
  10. Crafty Bison

    Crafty Bison King

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    Yes i tried this a few times and
    1) It just won't work unless you're Byzantium and have the extra spread on top, or possibly maya/ethiopia and REALLY commit to wide and missionaries/GP.
    2) Even if you are Byzantium, the times you really need it are the times you're taking capitals, which are their holy cities and ones they'll defend with GP/inquisitor. I found 2things which kinda worked a bit:
    a) If you take GP (i tried cheap and powerful GP enhancer) with your army you can always get one or two turns with the bonus in the key cities you cherry pick before they GP it back. This is a useful bonus in the exact places you need it but not very strong overall.
    b) religious texts taken as the bonus not the enhancer isn't horrific, and if you start in the middle of a pangea and take your war from side to side you'll probably get passable mileage from it, but not in the big important cities.
    c) My big idea was to take the cheaper missionaries as the bonus, get the piety finisher for even cheaper missionaries and GMoD, effectively giving you 3x the missionary power, then boost with the science for faith spread founder. This does not work. Unless very early, missionaries are still too weak (more for spreading to new lands than converting other religions), and your army of missionaries costs a bomb in maintenance when added to your existing army. Also they keep on stealing them, unless you cover them all, and by the time you've got them close enough you've basically taken the city already. Frustrating game.
     
  11. Pook

    Pook Bloviating

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    Peng Qi, you're making me rethink my tactics. I play on deity with raging barbarians, so I assume I will have hordes attacking my cities early on. I had consistently chosen God of War because I thought I needed the faith points to get to 200+ to have a chance at getting a religion.

    Perhaps the small faith bonus is not worth it- I'll have to think this through.
     
  12. kamex

    kamex Emperor

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    How much does it actually give per kill?
     
  13. SS-18 ICBM

    SS-18 ICBM Oscillator

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    Oh good. The image of fighter and bomber aircraft being put back in tip-top shape by holy healers was a weird image. :crazyeye:
     
  14. Pook

    Pook Bloviating

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    I don't know the formula, but it works out to half of the culture bonus you would get for killing a barbarian.

    For instance, with the honor tree opened, you get 8 :c5culture: for killing a barbarian brute. With God of War, you get 4 :c5faith: for killing a barbarian brute (or AI civ warrior) within 4 hexes of your city following your pantheon. Once you found a religion, then it's within 4 hexes of your city following your religion.
     
  15. Peng Qi

    Peng Qi Emperor

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    I don't play with Raging Barbs, so it may be more worth it then. But still, think of it this way; compare it to Stone Circles. If you have only one quarry in your entire empire, that's the same as killing a Brute close to one of your cities every other turn. If you have even a single Natural Wonder in your empire, One With Nature is the same as killing a brute every turn. It just seems unrealistic that God of War would ever provide enough faith to beat the "every single turn" bonuses.
     
  16. Dogmouth

    Dogmouth King

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    A decent use for God of War might be to combine it with Aztecs, holy warriors, permanent rebellion (keep happiness below -20), and full honor tree. I don't know how many units are spawned at -20, but if you could guarantee 5 or so kills a turn, you'd be rolling in faith, culture, and gold. Use the faith to buy units, and use the units to kill rebels for more faith! It would be the ultimate in hellish theocracies. Just make sure to always hit the "annex" button when you acquire a new city; otherwise they'll build those pesky happiness buildings.

    Edit: I suppose annexing would ruin the benefits of the culture grab. In that case, just make sure you never have luxes that you can't sell.
     
  17. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    It might be useful if you're going tall with like Ethiopia and expect to be on defense for most of the game... to use all that faith to spam free units via Holy Warriors. Some of those things are about timing. Yes it won't average out to much, but when you get attacked you suddenly get big faith bonuses to help you restock lost units. I dunno, very situational at best. We need an elimination thread. I can't ever decide which beliefs to pick. I'm always hemming and hawing, especially with the pantheon. Like, for example I had a 2 gold mine start and chose the +1 culture +1 faith from silver/gold pantheon. I then set up my second city to have 2 gold mines. The +4 faith per turn didn't even get me a religion. It just wasn't enough. The culture was nice, but having to work those production tiles when I wanted to be growing my cities early on was a real problem, so I ultimately slowed my own growth. I probably should have gone wide, and just left those cities at 3-4 pop, just enough to work the gold mines without starving. I dunno.

    I feel like that's great for when you're in production mode, but otherwise somewhat useless? Maybe I'm looking at it wrong.
     
  18. Crafty Bison

    Crafty Bison King

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    It gives melee combat strenght x 0.5. Thus makes it better to kill melee than ranged/siege, which have a low melee strenght.

    Again, it can be ok, but you really have to go after it, which may not be worth it for city placement/opportunity cost/you don't have an army yet/hammer and maintenance cost reasons. If you are gonna give it a go, put on raging babas or:

    1)
    Find your target. Look for the civ that has built the most units (see military adviser), and try to go for civs that make melee (especially mounted) heavy armies (e.g. not babylon, who will spam bowmen. Generally those with melee UU's later will have a melee bias early too). Avoid early UU's that give non cs bonuses (jaguar bad, hoplite good) but go after those with high cs like the legion.
    2)
    Piss them off. Inducing wars can be fun if done correctly, even warmongers need to know some diplo. hopefully they'll send their army over to your cities for the bonus.
    3)
    Plant a city (with your army nearby) RIGHT next to them. Try to find a spot where the land between you and them is flat and easy to kill units on. This means if all else fails you can DoW and still get the bonus, itmight also induce the DoW. Try not to take cities cos they'll not have the pantheon and their units will try to take it back. You'll have to kill them for 0 faith. Don't forget to take your army to the new city, else it'll die :(
    4)
    Don't let them be at war with anyone else, cos they'll lose units that you can kill. Tough to do but you can pay people to make peace etc.
    5)
    Focus on killing units outright. Seems obvious but 2 nearly dead units give 0 faith. Also target melee, especially mounted.
    6)
    Piss off everyone else (neighbour only :)). You might get an extra DoW when you run out of units to kill from the first war.

    The main problem is not in fighting them, but in getting the bonus when you do, you can't just dow someone and march over there, so it takes a little skill. It's generally not as powerful as some others (e.g. one with nature with spain and GBR, immedaite +16 faith!), but if your other options are tough, it can be made to work, and it feels very satistfying when it does. Plusif you'resettingupfo domination, you'llalready have the most important part (an army) and it's a greatway to benefit while you work up experience early.
     
  19. Crafty Bison

    Crafty Bison King

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    The +1 faith +1 culture pantheons are mainly to be used in conjuction with other techniques. You should use it while
    1) Also taking the two top piety SP's early
    2) going v wide an commiting to faith building early
    3) having a natural wonder like sri pada - not enough on its own unlike mt. sinai but a good boost
    4) SH. It's pretty powerful but you can take this pantheon, get the culture boost and not worry about faith buildings
    5) religious CS. They can take a while to get going so should probably be backed up with a part religious pantheon
    If you stack these, you'll probably end up with a very good belief pick, so not to be sniffed at, even if it sacrifices a little elsewhere in the game, and remember you get the early culture bonus as well as the faith.
     
  20. LostInTime

    LostInTime Warlord

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    Everything that gives hammers and happiness.

    The AI sucks royally at combat, so you really don't need any combat boosting stuff. What slows you down is happiness and hammers. Holy warriors can be good if you can grab tons of faith someway, but I would skip it if you are low on faith generation.
     

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