Best computer parts to get most from Civ4.

[Gumbolt]

Been thinking of ways to enhance my BTS experience. What benefit does a new computer have for civ 4? I currently use an E4600 2.4ghz Core 2 duo with 4gb ram and a SSD drive. My graphics are not great. Radeon 5670 512mb.

What would most enhance civ 4 more? More ram? (Not really possible on this machine as I have 4x1gb slots.) Better graphics card? Or a new build with a more modern CPU/Graphics like the new skylake ones? Skylake/Haswell CPU have onboard graphics too.

Just wondered if anyone had tried civ 4 on the new Skylake or Haswell/Broadwell CPUs. Also what benefit you sae from having 8-16gb ram over 4GB. Obviously DDR3 will be much faster. Plus from having a more high end graphics card. One option is to just upgrade my graphics if the CPU/Ram is not holding me back

Can you really tell any difference in game play with Skylake/Haswell builds? If not I may wait 1-2 years.

CPU comparison

Wasn't sure where to post this. Not totally techical support as my PC is running fine.

 

[Jerrymander]

Civilization still leaks memory so RAM would be the first thing I would upgrade. Helpful for larger maps, too. Keep in mind that anything above 4 GB combined video memory on your computer will require a 64 bit operating system, but most of them are now. CPU upgrade will make turns go faster. Not sure a GPU upgrade would even be necessary here, but the 5670 is kind of old at this point. I haven't looked into the onboard graphics on the newest CPUs, but they seem to be able to hold their own with older applications.

If your RAM is still DDR2 spec, then you really should consider buying a new motherboard with DDR3 support as the first upgrade.

As a caveat, my newest computer doesn't run Civilization any better than my old one. I went from an AMD Opteron 2200 to an i5 3470, as well as a Radeon 4770 to GTX 650. I did change the RAM from 4GB of DDR2 to 8GB of DDR3. The only difference is that now I can actually play huge maps.

Civilization isn't coded particularly efficiently so there's a lot of overhead. A faster CPU with a larger cache would help. I vaguely recall an attempt at modifying the C calls in BTS to run faster around 2008, but I'm not sure if anything came of that.

Also, what exactly do you want to improve? Faster turn times? More lens flare?

 

[Gumbolt]

I must admit I assumed it was ddr2 ram. Been so long since I bought this machine. Yep running windows 7 64 bit. So effectively I have 4.5gb ram including GPU.

Not sure what I want at this point from an upgraded computer. I can still crash if not in windows mode late game. I was aware how limited this game was when it came to memory.

Part of me is thinking hold off another 102 years till I do any upgrade as general stuff is fine on this PC. It's clear this game may always be limited by its 8-10+ year old code. Of course new games will struggle on here with the graphics/memory.

 

[ikotomi]

6-8 GB of ram will be good, because it gives you plenty of memory between OS, other apps, and civ 4, and is a reasonably cheap upgrade in your case. More than that is complete overkill and won't have any effect unless you are crazy multitasking. Even in worst case scenarios, civ 4 can't use significantly more than 4 gb of ram. You have many options, ranging from a ghetto buying 2x2 gb or one 4gb and replacing some but not all of your current ones to any combination of buying, or 2x4 gb and ending up with 10 gb of ram.

You're probably not going to see a huge increase from processor as well, since core 2 duo is already pretty good for civ 4. The biggest improvements will come from the larger cache sizes that the newer processors come with. Civ 4 isn't optimized for multiple cores, so unfortunately the biggest advances in processor tech don't apply to civ 4 performance. The improved architecture gets held back by the lower clockrates on individual cores, marginalizing the net effect. I don't know if anyone's done benchmarks, but I wouldn't be surprised if over clocking is a better route for raw performance in late game turn times.

I'd be surprised if a graphics upgrade will have much of an effect. The most graphically intensive thing in the game is probably the combat zoom, which I normally disable anyways. Civ isn't one if those games where you can see a real difference between 20 fps and 60 fps, so even if you did get an improved framerate, it can be really hard to notice outside of the edge cases. If you're regularly seeing drawing slowdowns, or want the zoom to be silky smooth, then you will benefit from a GPU upgrade.

 

[Gumbolt]

Firstly the highest ram any of my 4 slots can take is 2gb. Currently i have 4x 1gb. So for each 1gb ram I remove I can only slot in a new 2gb ram chip . The cost is prohibitive too .£10-20+ for an extra 1gb is not great. So 3x1gb and 1x2gb.

It seems getting 2 more cores is unlikely to help. (Not for this game anyway.) I have not tried over clocking my PC. It's possible I could use a 4C faster CPU my friend has. It sounds like at present my best bet is to wait. The best upgrade for this system was an SSD card. Which I have already done.

The downside to overclocking is that this is a Dell. I have no idea how much pressure it will take. I doubt Dell design PCs to be OC'd.

 

[ikotomi]

Firstly the highest ram any of my 4 slots can take is 2gb. Currently i have 4x 1gb. So for each 1gb ram I remove I can only slot in a new 2gb ram chip . The cost is prohibitive too .£10-20+ for an extra 1gb is not great. So 3x1gb and 1x2gb.

It seems getting 2 more cores is unlikely to help. (Not for this game anyway.) I have not tried over clocking my PC. It's possible I could use a 4C faster CPU my friend has. It sounds like at present my best bet is to wait. The best upgrade for this system was an SSD card. Which I have already done.

The downside to overclocking is that this is a Dell. I have no idea how much pressure it will take. I doubt Dell design PCs to be OC'd.

Yeah, it sounds like you can't get that much more for civ 4. If you can get high quality ram for 20 pounds, that's actually a pretty good deal, since you're also upgrading to ddr3, but my guess given how expensive parts are outside of America is that you're getting low end stuff in that range.

Overclocking a dell isn't going to be cheap since you'll need to replace the PSU for sure.

 

[Gumbolt]

Just to be clear I will need to replace the ram like for like. I don't think we had mainsterams ddr3 7-8 years ago. This mb will only take ddr2. I wonder if an extra gb would help. The question is am I likely to use other games any time soon.

Maybe I should just sit tight for another year. Really not convinced by Skylake chips as they have not really advanced much chip wise. Hmmmm.

 

[gimley_gunner]

Just wait until the recommended specs for Civ 6 are announced. If it's any good upgrade then. You've already got a SSD so your current system is fine for what you are using it for.

 

[God-Emperor]

The specific chip comparison you linked to, Intel Core2 Duo E4600 vs Core i5 6600K, should give you at least a 1/3 reduction in end-turn processing time and possibly 50% or a bit more (assuming it is paired with reasonably good memory). If you wait 30 seconds for a turn now, it would be cut to 20 seconds or less, possibly down to a bit under 15, for the same turn on the new system. The new computer might use less power as well, particularly since the built-in graphics are likely to outperform your current graphics card (best guess, based on Tom's Hardware testing and charts is that it is at or maybe 1 below the tier of the older Iris Pro 6200 integrated graphics, similar to a Radeon HD 4870, or just below) so you could do without that and power supplies themselves are generally more efficient as well and you may be getting a new one if not just replacing the motherboard/CPU/memory in an existing system.

That is assuming you don't overclock. The i5 6600K, being a "K" type processor, has an unlocked multiplier and is said to overclock fairly well. This is only relevant if you are willing to do the overclocking (and spend some additional money on a better cooling system for the CPU).

Only you can decide if that is worth the cost for you.

 

[Gumbolt]

It's fair to say the motherboard, ram and PSU from Dell would have to be scrapped. All outdated technology.

I can re use my 250GB SSD, 500gb hard drive, Windows, dvd drive and my card reader. GPU could also be replaced.

I did tot up a possible build. I came so close to ordering it too.
RM750I PSU 750 watts. (100)
2x8b DDR4 ram. (Corsair vegeance) (100)
H60 water cooling (60)
Intel i5 6600k. (probably over kill if not OC cpu.) (200)
Asus 170K (110)
Corsair 450D case. (100)
Works out about £670 without a GPU. £800 with a GPU. I had no idea on which GPU to get.

Overall a lot of things may be quicker with a new machine. I have not noticed too many lags on civ 4 lately. I just thought I might be upgrading for the sake of it.

I have never really learned how to OC a CPU. I could potentially do it with my 2.4ghz core 2 duo if I trusted the power supply I had. Dell doesn't make PSU for gaming.

I was also waiting to see the review on the non K intel Skylake chips. They are being somewhat slow to release these.

As for civ 6. I completely ignored civ 5 as it seemed a step backwards in many ways. I never understood why they didn't advance the game more based on Civ 4. People loved it.

 

[Seraiel]

You want at least 8, better 16 GB of RAM, then you get yourself RADEON RAMDisk (Google) , and copy CIV4 completely onto a virtual disk in your RAM. This allows to run CIV4 from the RAM only, which is about twice as fast as if you'd run it from the fastest and most popular SSD on the market (Samsung 850 Pro) . RAM has become incredibly cheap, so this is definitely the investment where you get "the most bang for your buck" . New CPU could be helpful aswell, but will cost you a lot more and have less of an impact.

 

[Gumbolt]

Not heard of Radeon Ram Disk. (Just googled it.) Do we know how much stress this puts onto the actual ram? I have no way of testing that with only 4gb of ram now. Will certainly look into this.

Makes you wonder if ram could replace hard drives on this basis one day?

I would never upgrade to less than 16gb of ram. I suggested 32gb to some friends and they suggested this was an over kill. £650 is affordable but I still wonder if needed.

Your advice and input in last few days is appreicated Seraiel. (Others too.) Good to see you signed up to SGOTM too. It's great to have more people in CFC engaged and helping others.

I suspect a lot of people on here have not really thought how much they could improve some of their game play. Be interested to know who else has tried Radeon Ram Disk and how it worked for them. Any thoughts on the above actual build and what graphics card may work well? I guess I could skip the graphics card till later. Not really needed for civ 4.

Just found an old thread from 2014 relating to a new build.

Just tried an old NC game with 70-80+ cities. The city screens were loading in 1-2 second. The issue was the game scrashing in full screen mode. Which I assume more ram solves.

 

[Jerrymander]

Not heard of Radeon Ram Disk. (Just googled it.) Do we know how much stress this puts onto the actual ram?

I'm going to go ahead and say that it's not any different. RAM is designed to be read/written/accesssed constantly. This just changes the volume of information stored on the RAM as opposed to normal memory.

Makes you wonder if ram could replace hard drives on this basis one day?

It will. The problem is the memory limitations. Normal memory capacity will always outpace RAM capacity, but we may reach a point where the 1000x difference in capacities won't matter. There definitely will be machines that store working information, like the OS and programs, on RAM but static data, like reference files and documents, on solid-state, slow memory.

More RAM should help the game from loading city screens slowly. I have 8GB and they always load (nearly) instantly, even on fully developed, 150+ city, Large/Huge maps.

 

[Gumbolt]

So the next question is will this be much slower for DDR4 ram compared to DDR3 using Ramdisk. DDR4 runs faster mhz but has a much higher latency compared to DDR3.

I think most of my issues with Civ 4 went away when I started using Windows mode. I struggle on end games at times where the game can crash.

Just been reading an article on Skylake. Skylake article. Basically saying they are having issues getting the i7 6700k manufactured due to yield issues. (Not reaching the speeds Intel wanted).

In effect the i7 6700k which can't meet Intel's expectations are downgraded to i5 6600k. Everyone happily paying for Intel's rejects at premium prices. It's a bit like AMD using some CPU as 3 cores as the 4th core didn't work. Makes you wonder how Cannon lake chips will ever reach the market at this rate. Looks like the i7 model will be limited or out of stock for another 2 months.

 

[Revent]

So the next question is will this be much slower for DDR4 ram compared to DDR3 using Ramdisk. DDR4 runs faster mhz but has a much higher latency compared to DDR3.

I think most of my issues with Civ 4 went away when I started using Windows mode. I struggle on end games at times where the game can crash.

Just been reading an article on Skylake. Skylake article. Basically saying they are having issues getting the i7 6700k manufactured due to yield issues. (Not reaching the speeds Intel wanted).

In effect the i7 6700k which can't meet Intel's expectations are downgraded to i5 6600k. Everyone happily paying for Intel's rejects at premium prices. It's a bit like AMD using some CPU as 3 cores as the 4th core didn't work. Makes you wonder how Cannon lake chips will ever reach the market at this rate. Looks like the i7 model will be limited or out of stock for another 2 months.

I've got an i7 5820k with 16GB RAM. My old PC was an i7 930 or something like that with 12GB RAM. My brothers is an i5 4690K with 8GB RAM. Between the 3, I don't notice a significant difference but I think Civ IVs main issue is the RAM as I struggled to run it on my old laptop but have yet to test it on my current Carbon.

If you're looking for a new PC, make sure to check uk.pcpartpicker.com which will get you the cheapest parts to self assemble

I'm not sure about right now, but when I bought my DDR4 RAM, it was extortion!

 

[Revent]

It's fair to say the motherboard, ram and PSU from Dell would have to be scrapped. All outdated technology.

I can re use my 250GB SSD, 500gb hard drive, Windows, dvd drive and my card reader. GPU could also be replaced.

I did tot up a possible build. I came so close to ordering it too.
RM750I PSU 750 watts. (100)
2x8b DDR4 ram. (Corsair vegeance) (100)
H60 water cooling (60)
Intel i5 6600k. (probably over kill if not OC cpu.) (200)
Asus 170K (110)
Corsair 450D case. (100)
Works out about £670 without a GPU. £800 with a GPU. I had no idea on which GPU to get.

Overall a lot of things may be quicker with a new machine. I have not noticed too many lags on civ 4 lately. I just thought I might be upgrading for the sake of it.

I have never really learned how to OC a CPU. I could potentially do it with my 2.4ghz core 2 duo if I trusted the power supply I had. Dell doesn't make PSU for gaming.

I was also waiting to see the review on the non K intel Skylake chips. They are being somewhat slow to release these.

As for civ 6. I completely ignored civ 5 as it seemed a step backwards in many ways. I never understood why they didn't advance the game more based on Civ 4. People loved it.

Not sure how good that PSU is, but https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/part/evga-power-supply-220g20850xr is same the price, a solid PSU and extra 100W power.

As for GPU, it all depends on budget. I think the best bang for buck GPU out there is the MSI GTX 970. Great performance, but is on the more expensive side of things.

 

[Seraiel]

RADEON RAMDisk doesn't put any stress on the RAMs, RAMs are built to work 100% of the time anyhow, doesn't matter if you use them as a form of harddrive or as temporary storage. I already posted about RAMDisk in some earlier threads, and all users that tried it had a blast from it, when I say at least 2 times as fast as a Samsung 850 Pro, that's accurate, I stopped the time in situations like i. e. scrolling from the first to the last city by keeping the -> key pressed in the city screen. Everything goes faster with RAMDisk, not only loading a savegame, also scrolling in and out the map, selecting units in a huge stack, moving the map fast over a large distance, opening a city, everything just has the best possible latency. I'm playing on an Alienware Gaming Notebook, if I get double speed with 1833 Mhz RAMs and superfast components, your system will probably make an even bigger jump because Desktop RAMs can be even faster and with your other components being slower, the gain from RAMDisk will be relatively greater.

 

[Gumbolt]

Thanks for all the advice guys.

I definately plan on using ramdisk once I upgrade. I may wait a few weeks so Intel can sort out production issues.

I hand picked the psu. It got very good ratings in review. I did look at partpicker. A site called alza seems to be cheapest. Not heard of it before. Might be hard to upgrade during sgotm.

Ddr4 prices are very reasonable now.



I may delay the graphics upgrade to a later date. Civ 4 is hardly held back by this. Amazon may do some lightning deals near Xmas.

 

[Pangaea]

This may sound obvious, but did you research Computers? That might help.

 

[Gumbolt]

This may sound obvious, but did you research Computers? That might help.

I have looked at various review sites on parts. I have a mate who will help set up the PC. So it's just a matter of picking the right parts. The problem is what a review shows you and what the computer actually does for me is another matter. Most CPU reviews don't cver civ 4.