In the spirit of the SE vs. CE discussion, I would like to start a new thread with a financial civ, namely, Malinese. The setting will be standard size continent, default # of civs, aggressive AI option, all victories enabled but you must win by domination. One side will be playing it CE style (with only one GP farm allowed), and the other will be playing it SE style (with only one city extensively cottaged, most likely the capital for the bureaucracy bonus. However, you can cottage non-irrigable tiles prior to bureaucracy, after that, you must convert those to farms by chain irrigation). I don't have the game with me now, so could someone go ahead and generate a 4000 BC save file? Please post your save when you have gained victory, the side with the highest score will be declared the winner. Suggestions are welcome, let the great CE vs. SE battle begin.
Best Domination Challenge: Mansa, Emperor, CE or SE
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futurehermit
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From our other thread:
-it is important to include civics in the discussion. can the CE player make extensive use of representation/caste system/pacificism?
-if the CE player has a great gp farm and lightbulb many gps prior to liberalism it starts to blur the lines between the two economies (although that is fair enough imo as long as the CE player has cottages > farms in rest of cities)
-it is important to include civics in the discussion. can the CE player make extensive use of representation/caste system/pacificism?
-if the CE player has a great gp farm and lightbulb many gps prior to liberalism it starts to blur the lines between the two economies (although that is fair enough imo as long as the CE player has cottages > farms in rest of cities)
futurehermit
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which makes it harder to compare the two imo
If every civic alloved so what limitation CE player has?
WE never pronhibit him from using farms, and SE is pronhibited from using cottagess.
It like asking one player to play with his hand behind his back and the compare.
No one ever argued that fully developed cottage with rigth civis beat everything. What was allways argued that on simply does not have luctury to do it.
It is extrimelly evident on higher levels, sarting form immortal and absolute on deity.
Trying to compare this on lower level does not really show strength of FE, flexibility and lots of shields.
So, you need to put some limitation on CE player, or comparesing is a moot.
WE never pronhibit him from using farms, and SE is pronhibited from using cottagess.
It like asking one player to play with his hand behind his back and the compare.
No one ever argued that fully developed cottage with rigth civis beat everything. What was allways argued that on simply does not have luctury to do it.
It is extrimelly evident on higher levels, sarting form immortal and absolute on deity.
Trying to compare this on lower level does not really show strength of FE, flexibility and lots of shields.
So, you need to put some limitation on CE player, or comparesing is a moot.
Julian Delphiki
Anton's key
Why aggressive AI - it only harassess the player, and might lead to inconsistence on this challenge?
Edit, esp if someone relying on CE gets pillaged for because of an bad RNG, its obviously a very bad thing compared to someone whose economy is build on farms.
Edit, esp if someone relying on CE gets pillaged for because of an bad RNG, its obviously a very bad thing compared to someone whose economy is build on farms.
futurehermit
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imo it's not so much about limiting the CE as it is preventing the CE player from capitalizing on some of the abilities of the SE player. if a CE player starts running representation/caste system/pacificism--even if only for a single gpfarm--it starts to blur the lines between a CE and a SE. in other words, it starts to become a hybrid economy. a strict CE will run CE civics and will tend to use gp for their abilities (e.g., academy in capital, GAs, etc.) rather than for lightbulbing beakers, especially early on.
Here is a start up file for Mansa. It is on emperor setting, continental map, all victories are enabled, but you must win by domination. You can choose to play CE or SE style economy, by the end we will see who has the highest score. Good luck, and may the best warmonger win.
Well, the last CE vs. SE game was played as Peter, who is philosophical, which favours SE. However, CE seemed to perform better for space race victory. This game we intentionally use Mansa, who is financial, which favours CE approach. However, we want to test if SE will be able to get domination faster vs. CE. The game is on emperor difficulty level.
This is a hard map! Settling on spot is pretty much out of the question since at the start one needs heavy production (Huyana Capac and Toku must not be allowed to grow!). Im running the SE version.
I settled next to the massive 5 ivory spot to the south. All ivory in my fat cross. Wiped Huyana Capac pre 1000 BC, kept both his cities (one was hindu holy city).
The next thing I did was beelined construction. About 400 BC I had 4 catapults and charged tokugawa. Its now 400 AD and tokugawa had one small city left. I own the entire contintent. However, my tech rate is screwed.
I built the great wall after wiping Huyana Capac (actually in the lull between taking his first and second cities). The Wall gave me an engineer -> I got the pyramids 400 BC. Thus I'm running representation with 2 scientists / city (havent got code of laws yet!!).
I can kill toku at will but I took peace to milk techs. He gave poly/sailing/iron and another which I cant remember. When treaty runs out I'll try to milk him for more tech by declaring war.
Some observations:
------------------
-The ivory spot is good. It allows one to own the continent (in both senses of the word
) but a this spot is NOT a successful late game capital. Im moving my capital to a spot to the west (one of tokus cities).
-Its impossible to run pure SE. There are areas with no rivers and the conquered cities will be cottage spammed when conquered. Bureaucracy is still a way off (it will come in maybe 800 AD, late I know). Therefore there will eb a cottage component in the start, but most of this goes to maintenance (slider is low).
-I razed most conquered cities. Those emperor AIs spread like wildfire. No way I could support 10+ cities at this point. Will have to rebuild later...
-As far as I can see, the ONLY way to win this is to wipe the first continent as quickly as possible. Beeline to astronomy/chemistry through massive bulbing. Whip all cities dry to make galleons/trebs/grenadiers -> CHAAARGE! the other continent
-Hopefully the AIs on the other continent will be at each others necks. In my game I'm guessing I cant have an invasion force pre 1400 AD -> I dont want to face anything harder than riflemen...
I settled next to the massive 5 ivory spot to the south. All ivory in my fat cross. Wiped Huyana Capac pre 1000 BC, kept both his cities (one was hindu holy city).
The next thing I did was beelined construction. About 400 BC I had 4 catapults and charged tokugawa. Its now 400 AD and tokugawa had one small city left. I own the entire contintent. However, my tech rate is screwed.
I built the great wall after wiping Huyana Capac (actually in the lull between taking his first and second cities). The Wall gave me an engineer -> I got the pyramids 400 BC. Thus I'm running representation with 2 scientists / city (havent got code of laws yet!!).
I can kill toku at will but I took peace to milk techs. He gave poly/sailing/iron and another which I cant remember. When treaty runs out I'll try to milk him for more tech by declaring war.
Some observations:
------------------
-The ivory spot is good. It allows one to own the continent (in both senses of the word
) but a this spot is NOT a successful late game capital. Im moving my capital to a spot to the west (one of tokus cities).-Its impossible to run pure SE. There are areas with no rivers and the conquered cities will be cottage spammed when conquered. Bureaucracy is still a way off (it will come in maybe 800 AD, late I know). Therefore there will eb a cottage component in the start, but most of this goes to maintenance (slider is low).
-I razed most conquered cities. Those emperor AIs spread like wildfire. No way I could support 10+ cities at this point. Will have to rebuild later...
-As far as I can see, the ONLY way to win this is to wipe the first continent as quickly as possible. Beeline to astronomy/chemistry through massive bulbing. Whip all cities dry to make galleons/trebs/grenadiers -> CHAAARGE! the other continent
-Hopefully the AIs on the other continent will be at each others necks. In my game I'm guessing I cant have an invasion force pre 1400 AD -> I dont want to face anything harder than riflemen...
Sounds like you were quite successful at waging war. Since you are running SE under representation, I would have kept more cities. With science and merchant specialists (hopefully caste system soon), you can afford to run the science at 0% and still have good tech rate. BTW, could you attach a couple of save files, so others can see how you layout your empire?
Good work frob!
As before, I felt it was a particularly difficult map. I'm playing at this level now, but this was something else again. In light of frob's post clearly I waited too long to launch my own attack on the Incas - which was very expensive, while Tokugawa just seemed invincible.
When I'm feeling brave or brilliant or both, I might give this another shot ... but for now it's a bit
for me.
As before, I felt it was a particularly difficult map. I'm playing at this level now, but this was something else again. In light of frob's post clearly I waited too long to launch my own attack on the Incas - which was very expensive, while Tokugawa just seemed invincible.
When I'm feeling brave or brilliant or both, I might give this another shot ... but for now it's a bit
for me.I'm replaying it though (lost my temper at the last attempt after losing liberalism to augustus caesar by 2 turns in 1256 AD). There is one possible flaw in the strategy I pursued: I took the mega-production ivory site to allow me enough skirmishers to kill Huyana with only archery, however this was a really bad capital site in the long run. No growth.
Toku went down but the war was protracted ( ca 500 BC to 400 AD) during which time I was whipping catapults / war elephants / skirmishers like crazy, so my economy utterly and completely tanked. War Weariness didnt help either..
It is one thing I've noticed with all AI at any level. Pre AD they do suck. Its the AD years when they show their teeth.
Next time I'm hoping to balance a bit more (I did have a slightly too large army at the end) and hopefully at least have CoL during the toku war so I can whip courthouses and run merchants DURING the war so I'm not living off pillage at -60 per turn I'll try and post some saves from this attempt.
I had 2 bad STRIKEs where at least 4 units disbanded during the war
Toku went down but the war was protracted ( ca 500 BC to 400 AD) during which time I was whipping catapults / war elephants / skirmishers like crazy, so my economy utterly and completely tanked. War Weariness didnt help either..
It is one thing I've noticed with all AI at any level. Pre AD they do suck. Its the AD years when they show their teeth.
Next time I'm hoping to balance a bit more (I did have a slightly too large army at the end) and hopefully at least have CoL during the toku war so I can whip courthouses and run merchants DURING the war so I'm not living off pillage at -60 per turn
I'll try and post some saves from this attempt.I had 2 bad STRIKEs where at least 4 units disbanded during the war
how can you get mad when you wait so long for liberalism?
When I don't have it in 1000 AD, I check what other options I have (unless playing warlord level
).I got mad because I got beaten by 2 turns.. Then again youre right.. my research was toast and I'm surprised the AI didnt get it earlier, considering that its emperor.
I traded Education to the other AIs when I saw augustus caesar would only give a small gold amount for it..
The way that game went it wasnt so much a matter of waiting a long time for liberalism, and I'm surprised I managed to recover as well as I did. Next time I'll try to keep a better balance between research/war and hopefully get liberalism pre 1000 AD (actually if I'd just had 1 more GS it would have worked since I could have bulbed paper..)
I traded Education to the other AIs when I saw augustus caesar would only give a small gold amount for it..
The way that game went it wasnt so much a matter of waiting a long time for liberalism, and I'm surprised I managed to recover as well as I did. Next time I'll try to keep a better balance between research/war and hopefully get liberalism pre 1000 AD (actually if I'd just had 1 more GS it would have worked since I could have bulbed paper..)
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