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best economic model for max happiness and sustainablity?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Narz, Jul 25, 2020.

  1. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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    On the vein of the Felix smbc cómic link, there was this professor of the history of fascism at UC Berkeley that lived through it. It seemed like if you were enfranchised and on the inside of that system, it felt really good.

    Similarly, I think to mouthwash posting that link about how the commanches were a very happy bunch, just horrible to those outside.

    I worry about the answer to this question.

    Cleary expressing yourself and being “savage” is a very enriching way to live. We definitely want to have a system includes as much savageness (not savagery) as we can get away with while providing goodness thru civilization.

    Being savage is like saying “hit me” in blackjack so if the system is promoting holding at 12, the system is too civilized. If the system is saying “hit me” at 19 it’s too savage there’s only a 1/6 (loosely) chance you won’t go bust.
     
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  2. amadeus

    amadeus The Choice of a New Generation

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    Did I miss something?
     
  3. Denkt

    Denkt Left permamently

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    Well if you think Singapore is doing well, what about Manhattan in New York which have a GDP per capita of more than $350 000 and a total GDP of 600 billion US dollars.
     
  4. amadeus

    amadeus The Choice of a New Generation

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    I don't think there is a lot of useful information to be gleaned from New York model-wise because it does not have sovereign control over its territory.
     
  5. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    Soviet people derived happiness from scientific achievements, sports, educating themselves. Just like normal people everywhere else. Let’s not pretend people living in a socialist state are somehow separate from the entire human race, as you message tries to imply in bad Latin. The path to best economic model is pretty clear: maintain acceptable balance of creative expression and stability, while minimising economic inequality. Not so simple in practice, of course..
     
  6. Colon

    Colon King

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  7. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    Unless I'm badly misremembering it, I was referring to the Stakhanovite movement which attempted to equate productivity and economic development with happiness.
    I also intended that comment to be a side-swipe toward amadeus for his well documented dislike for socialist systems. It wasn't that long ago he was running around with Barry Goldwater as his avatar.
     
  8. amadeus

    amadeus The Choice of a New Generation

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    Why am I described as having been “running around?” Seems like unnecessarily provocative language.

    I don’t remember I had a Goldwater avatar, so it probably would have been quite a while ago.
     
  9. Narz

    Narz keeping it real

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    What?
     
  10. Aleksey_aka_al

    Aleksey_aka_al Smiley

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    Communism:

    Everyone does what they desire. Everyone uses everything around they need. Everything is shared between everyone. No exploitation. Everyone is free from owning obsession and losing paranoia, so that everyone sees everyone else around not as a potential threat to property but as a source of it, as cooperators, so there’s no alienation between people we have and no needless rivalry, there is a more powerful and motivated connection instead.

    Technological and economical progress (which is already enough), liberated creativity innate to humans, thirst for work or doing something sensible, innate desire to change the environment around you, to affect the world, to experience it, to experience the process and the results of an activity with noone to usurp those things – will make communism work and work better than anything else ever before.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2020
  11. Narz

    Narz keeping it real

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    Sounds utopian but what are the nuts and bolts of how to make sure everyone can do "what they desire" yet keep people from coveting for themselves alone.

    Whats to stop me from going into my neighbor's bedroom and hoping in bed on the other side of his wife (its not really his room or his bed)?

    And is everyone does what they desire who does the undesirable work?
     
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  12. amadeus

    amadeus The Choice of a New Generation

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    Generally speaking, communists define "personal" property and "private" property differently: your furniture, your clothes, etc. are all still things that are yours and you have exclusive right to use. The industrial infrastructure, heavy machinery, etc. is what they call "private property" and seek to abolish.
     
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  13. Truthy

    Truthy Chatbot

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    Since Hygro hasn't clarified, he's referencing this thread from a while back. The Comanche part is basically about the book "Empire of the Summer Moon". It's an interesting book that basically makes Comanche life in the 18th-19th century sound awesome (until the US crushed them and forced them onto tiny miserable reservations). Except they were usually very vicious and cruel to virtually everyone who wasn't one of them; Mexican/Spanish settlers, American settlers, and even other Native Americans.
     
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  14. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    Never has happened; never will happen. It is hard enough to create such a world at the household level, let alone at some larger scale.
     
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  15. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Deity

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    Which starts with socialising your kids
    no small effort :D
     
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  16. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    If sustainability is one of the criteria both capitalism and communism and everything in between needs to change pretty radically from how they have worked in the past.
     
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  17. Commodore

    Commodore Deity

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    This is the question no communist has been able to give a satisfactory answer to. And the reason they can't give a satisfactory answer is because there isn't one. Communism is nothing more than the wishful thinking of those who are jealous of others who have more than them or live a more comfortable life.
     
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  18. Cokolwiek

    Cokolwiek Prince

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    Soviet Union collapse was mainly driven by Moscow elites in their self-interest and ideological fad of openess and fear of internal conflicts, not Soviet people. It ended as a societal and economical collapse with poverty for nearly all commoners and suicides for many. Ukraine in 80s and Ukraine post 90s, is a near first-world with high HDI, social and economical safety net of Scandinavian countries, and space technology compared to third world now behind China.
    Most of Western Sovietologists now acknowledge that late Soviet Union was a stable country with a great potential to provide geopolitical stability to many parts of Eastern Europe, Caucasus, Central Asia, China (now evidently shaken and even shaken further by Ukraine-Russia conflict) and remaining stable and technologically advanced economy with some part of the status China now has.
    Majority of the people wanted to stay united in an internationally accepted referendum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Soviet_Union_referendum
    Oxford's Archie Brown, Berkeley's George Breslauer, Darthmouth's David Kotz and many other distinguished historians hold the view that Soviet collapse was more of a externally-driven event, than any logical consequence and Soviet system was capable of thriving (the same with Nobel laureate in Economics Joseph Stiglitz). Desolation in poverty and vodka was a image of Russia AFTER and a CONSEQUENCE of dissolution of the Soviet Union, not a reason for it.
    Russia/Soviet Union had much better public infrastructure, one of the best science and engineering schooling, several orders of magnitude larger spending/graduates of universities than China.
    I encourage you to study on the topic, not accepting Western misconceptions. In fact US by summer 1991 argued and lobbied for NO dissolution, noticing adverse geopolitical implications, while the main sad event was August putsch that buried the Soviet Union. Had they just removed and freed puppets in Eastern Europe, freed republics that voted to go out, and reformed with more openness and limited market-oriented economy, removing totalitarian measures, plight of Eastern Europeans could be more stable and anti-Western sentiment much less prominent in Russia. Power of any Putins would be diminished as they were product of dissolution with the Western life and predatory capitalism. Russia wanted to integrate into EU and Western institutions in the 90s anyway, but it was the West who made a lot of mess lobbying for dissolution and then abandoning former Soviet republics when they were willing to submit to Western standards in exchange for loans.
    I'm not a communism proponent nor apologetic of Soviet Union totalitarian rule and crimes (thought they concern mostly Stalin's reign and were scarcer than American by the 80s). But how would a world without increasingly anti-West, aggressive and authoritarian Russia that is a resource colony for China look?
     
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  19. Denkt

    Denkt Left permamently

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    Well New York Metro Area have a larger GDP than most countries but most of the wealth is in Manhattan Borough as the rest of the boroughs are under US average GDP per capita. If you consider wealthy cities, New York is pretty much at the top even if it is not a city state, I think only Tokyo is richer in total GDP but New York is richer in terms of GDP per capita.

    Obviously such cities are very dependent on a strong logistical network, but that is not more a flaw of New York than any other large city. However most of US economic output in terms of GDP comes from a few cities (and that is probably the case of other countries economies). Like if you take away London from UK, I think its GDP and GDP per capita would drop alot.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2020
  20. Cokolwiek

    Cokolwiek Prince

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    GDP represents economic output. It's production measure only. It does not imply affluence of the population nor equality of distribution, though correlates somewhat with it. NYC metro has it so high because of all business headquarters but that money goes to a handful of CEO, Presidents, share-holders etc. not general population. That does not mean a waitress or shoemaker makes any more, especially when you will account for higher cost of living.
     

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