Best Expansive Leader

[The Almighty dF]

Well, the winner of the financial poll is looking pretty clear.
This poll, I think, should probably have a less clear winner than the Fin and Phi polls did, so let's see.

Don't forget to vote on the rest in the series if you haven't yet:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=376205 Philosophical
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=375548 Creative
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=376228 Charismatic
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=375839 Spiritual
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=376296 Financial

Who do you feel is the most powerful Expansive leader, and why?

I've gotta go Joao. I've never REXed so well in my life without killing my economy. Fast settlers, fast workers, cheap granaries, a good naval UU, a really good later-game UB all combine so well that I often get 11 cities before 1AD, and always seem to do well at getting a industrial (or sometimes renaissance) era domination victory.

 

[Higher Game]

Mehmed. Perfect starting techs, the hammam is an amazing UB, and janissary drafting can be ridiculous.

 

[madscientist]

I like these surveys, a good way to finish rehashing CIV before CiV comes out.

I voted Washington as the starting food techs combined with the potential of the largest population cities are tough to beat, plus a fast early Granery and harbor.

Late in the game he is tough to beat as an American invasion force is the best for intercontinental assault (well promoted navy and a good UU) plus the Mall is a lot better than people credit.

Mehmed is a close second because of the disgusting number of discounted building plus ORG is ORG.

Bismark tends to be under-rated although the UU is the worse in the game.

Sury has good trait although his UB and UU are weird.

Peter is the best for a late game space race rush and Shaka a great war-monger.

The rest are all rather mediocre.

 

[The Almighty dF]

I like these surveys, a good way to finish rehashing CIV before CiV comes out.

I voted Washington as the starting food techs combined with the potential of the largest population cities are tough to beat, plus a fast early Granery and harbor.

Late in the game he is tough to beat as an American invasion force is the best for intercontinental assault (well promoted navy and a good UU) plus the Mall is a lot better than people credit.

Mehmed is a close second because of the disgusting number of discounted building plus ORG is ORG.

Bismark tends to be under-rated although the UU is the worse in the game.

Sury has good trait although his UB and UU are weird.

Peter is the best for a late game space race rush and Shaka a great war-monger.

The rest are all rather mediocre.

I have to strongly disagree on one thing. The Panzer isn't the -worst- UU in the game. I'd rather have it than the Numidian Cavalry at least.
The Panzer is at least a nice stack-member for late game wars when your enemies have tanks, the Numidian Cavalry... has no purpose, and could be argued to be less useful than what it replaces. I mean your biggest threat with HAs is archers. Now you're -1 STR, but you're better against melee units.

 

[madscientist]

The almight Df, the link to the creative poll is the same as the Charismatic link, you may want to correct that.

 

[The Almighty dF]

The almight Df, the link to the creative poll is the same as the Charismatic link, you may want to correct that.

Fixed, thanks for pointing that out.

 

[madscientist]

I have to strongly disagree on one thing. The Panzer isn't the -worst- UU in the game. I'd rather have it than the Numidian Cavalry at least.
The Panzer is at least a nice stack-member for late game wars when your enemies have tanks, the Numidian Cavalry... has no purpose, and could be argued to be less useful than what it replaces.

Numidian are pretty strong in my opinion (see my last RPC for evidence). They lose one strength but get a free promotion I almost always take, flanking I. With a stable that's Flanking I, II, and combat right out of the gate plus Hannibal is charismatic so that 8XP promotion comes pretty fast. The 50% to melee is icing on the cake. Still no Keshik, but also not a Ballista elephant.

THe Panzer on paper is good, but in practice I have never had them fight another tank in all my games. Gunships are a much better option for stack protection or anti-tanks for city defense. PAnzers should have had an extra moverment, immunity to terrain (a la keshiks), or a free promotion like drill or combat.

 

[Fleme]

I'm voting Mehmed. Exp/Org has so many cheap buildings that it's just too good to pass up. He's good on both coast and on land and the Hammam is a great UB. I'm not much of a Janissary man but you could easily leverage those if you devoted yourself to it but that's more of a Suleiman thing.

And yes, Mehmed has strong starting techs to boot.

 

[The Almighty dF]

Numidian are pretty strong in my opinion (see my last RPC for evidence). They lose one strength but get a free promotion I almost always take, flanking I. With a stable that's Flanking I, II, and combat right out of the gate plus Hannibal is charismatic so that 8XP promotion comes pretty fast. The 50% to melee is icing on the cake. Still no Keshik, but also not a Ballista elephant.

THe Panzer on paper is good, but in practice I have never had them fight another tank in all my games. Gunships are a much better option for stack protection or anti-tanks for city defense. PAnzers should have had an extra moverment, immunity to terrain (a la keshiks), or a free promotion like drill or combat.

Hmmm... I see your point. However, you do bring up something. I'd still sooner take the panzer over the ballista elephant.
I've almost, never, in my entire BtS experience, gone up against enemy elephants. I've gone up against enemy tanks (Darius I especially seems to love them, as well as Washington, and Roosevelt), but... never an elephant.

I'm glad to see at least someone has already voted for Shaka. I'd honestly say he may be the best of the strictly warfare leaders. Even the AI ends up being an efficient killing machine with him, to the degree where I exterminate him in any game he pops up, for fear of a massive assault later in the game. His UU may not be too much to brag about, but his UB is insane. A -barracks- that acts as a mini courthouse? Combine that with cheap workers, cheap granaries, free combat 1, and the fact that even his UB is cheap for him, and you've got a leader that scares me more than Julius and Genghis.

 

[Jerrymander]

Hmmm... I see your point. However, you do bring up something. I'd still sooner take the panzer over the ballista elephant.
I've almost, never, in my entire BtS experience, gone up against enemy elephants.

And? The Ballista Elephant counters all mounted units, and has the ability to attack them first outside of cities. The Panzer does something another unit already does better (the gunship).

 

[Higher Game]

I like these surveys, a good way to finish rehashing CIV before CiV comes out.

I voted Washington as the starting food techs combined with the potential of the largest population cities are tough to beat, plus a fast early Granery and harbor.

Late in the game he is tough to beat as an American invasion force is the best for intercontinental assault (well promoted navy and a good UU) plus the Mall is a lot better than people credit.

Mehmed is a close second because of the disgusting number of discounted building plus ORG is ORG.

Bismark tends to be under-rated although the UU is the worse in the game.

Sury has good trait although his UB and UU are weird.

Peter is the best for a late game space race rush and Shaka a great war-monger.

The rest are all rather mediocre.

Pacal is not mediocre. He has great traits, a respectable anti-barbarian unique unit, and a good unique building synergy with expansive. I would put him just behind Mehmed.

 

[madscientist]

Pacal is not mediocre. He has great traits, a respectable anti-barbarian unique unit, and a good unique building synergy with expansive. I would put him just behind Mehmed.

Maybe mediocre is a bad word, but I put him mid-pack amongst the other expansionists. I forget his other starting tech but one is mysticism, rather weak. His UU is below average, give me a few good archers for anti-barb activity. The UB is good although getting that ball court out can be a pain at higher levels. Financial means I "usually" cottage spam meaning I do not want to use slavery as much, thus less emphasis on the cheap granery. Give me Washington, Mehmed, Bismark over Pacal anytime.

 

[Higher Game]

And? The Ballista Elephant counters all mounted units, and has the ability to attack them first outside of cities. The Panzer does something another unit already does better (the gunship).

Advanced flight is an optional tech, though, and it carries a huge opportunity cost because that's the space race era. The ballista elephant doesn't even come in handy against big stacks where you'll hit them first with siege anyway. It's only decent (and just that, decent) in very rare circumstances where a handful of mixed units attacks.

The panzer is better than ballista elephants, landsknecht, and numidian cavalry. It's often better than jaguars and dog soldiers. It's a bad UU but it's not the worst.

 

[madscientist]

Advanced flight is an optional tech, though, and it carries a huge opportunity cost because that's the space race era. The ballista elephant doesn't even come in handy against big stacks where you'll hit them first with siege anyway. It's only decent (and just that, decent) in very rare circumstances where a handful of mixed units attacks.

The panzer is better than ballista elephants, landsknecht, and numidian cavalry. It's often better than jaguars and dog soldiers. It's a bad UU but it's not the worst.

The Landsknecht is an unusual unit as it will actually target seige weapons against an incoming stack as I inadvertantly found out durinan RPC, the exception is if crossbows are in the stack.

Jags have 2 free promotions and can easily get woodsman III which is a great healing unit throughout the game. They can also move fast through enemy forrests jungles to pillage behind enemy lines.

Dog soldiers are the only unit other than war elephants that will stand toe to toe with Prats (well almost). Also starting a Dog rush after the first 2 techs WITHOUT copper is pretty nasty for close leaders.

Numidian I have already defended.

Panzers and Ballistas problems are that they replace extremely powerful units already so getting anything else seams trivial.

 

[The Almighty dF]

Advanced flight is an optional tech, though, and it carries a huge opportunity cost because that's the space race era. The ballista elephant doesn't even come in handy against big stacks where you'll hit them first with siege anyway. It's only decent (and just that, decent) in very rare circumstances where a handful of mixed units attacks.

The panzer is better than ballista elephants, landsknecht, and numidian cavalry. It's often better than jaguars and dog soldiers. It's a bad UU but it's not the worst.

I couldn't have put it better myself.
Maybe it it had an attack -bonus- against mounted units it'd be worthwhile.
I'm also glad to hear I'm not the only one to think that Dog Soldiers and Landsknechts are bad.
I'm... I can't vote on jaguars. I'm really, really. really awful at Montezuma. I've never managed to win a game with him since his trait change.

 

[Higher Game]

Maybe mediocre is a bad word, but I put him mid-pack amongst the other expansionists. I forget his other starting tech but one is mysticism, rather weak. His UU is below average, give me a few good archers for anti-barb activity. The UB is good although getting that ball court out can be a pain at higher levels. Financial means I "usually" cottage spam meaning I do not want to use slavery as much, thus less emphasis on the cheap granery. Give me Washington, Mehmed, Bismark over Pacal anytime.

For what it's worth, mysticism/mining can go for a Stonehenge chop if you get bronze working first, and then you just need hunting to start making holkans; they don't require a resource and they get first strike immunity, so they kill barbarian archers easily. Skip archery.

Ball courts come at construction, and you'll want that badly anyway for catapults. If you don't get it, it's probably because you were doomed at the start. The extra health and happiness means great long term growth. Financial cottage spam means workshops/caste system look less competitive, so slavery should look better for whipping out multipliers.

Why would you pick a practically uniqueless German or American leader instead?

 

[NihilZero]

Pacal is very good (voted Mehmed though...for once the poll agrees with me). He has exceptional barb defence which makes it easy to get the city sites he wants, a strong trait pairing and a good UB. The only weak thing about him is Mysticism, a sub par starting tech, but less-than-stellar starting techs are not completely fatal when barbs are not a problem. The Holkan buys ample time to fill out the worker techs in whatever order is most convenient.

 

[madscientist]

For what it's worth, mysticism/mining can go for a Stonehenge chop if you get bronze working first, and then you just need hunting to start making holkans; they don't require a resource and they get first strike immunity, so they kill barbarian archers easily. Skip archery.

Ball courts come at construction, and you'll want that badly anyway for catapults. If you don't get it, it's probably because you were doomed at the start. The extra health and happiness means great long term growth. Financial cottage spam means workshops/caste system look less competitive, so slavery should look better for whipping out multipliers.

Why would you pick a practically uniqueless German or American leader instead?

ChWashington: Charismatic goes well with expansion to get very highly populated cities. Agrictulure and fishing means food is usually not an issue at first so I can work towards military/economy from the get go. Going refridgeration after Biology/Electrcity for an earlier Mall is not a bad deal and make good trade fodder. He is also the most efficient in terms of Corps as the Mall has the highest extra gold percentage bonus (20%) of all UBs. Charismatic and the extra happiness with teh Mall means less dependence on late game civics for happiness. Being Charismatic means 2 free promotion for each drydock city, thus a stronger navy which has big advantages with the Navy Seal (which is the only UB besides the fast worker NOT to expire) while the extra health of expansive compensates for the unhealthiness in those drydock cities.

Bismark: I wonderspam with Berlin while the other cities grow very fast with discounted graneries. I can usually nail the Great Wall and Pyramids with Bismark, and usually Stonhenge if I do not have to side track too much towards early military.

Both Washington and Bismark start much stronger earlier in the game rather than waiting for construction. The later in the game they have advantages with the UBs (I still like the Assembly Plant) and in the American case the UU.

As far as Pacal you bring up an interesting early strategy I never considered, the only problem is you people have nothing to eat that early except rocks.

 

[The Almighty dF]

Pacal is very good (voted Mehmed though...for once the poll agrees with me). He has exceptional barb defence which makes it easy to get the city sites he wants, a strong trait pairing and a good UB. The only weak thing about him is Mysticism, a sub par starting tech, but less-than-stellar starting techs are not completely fatal when barbs are not a problem. The Holkan gives ample time to fill out the worker techs in whatever order is most convenient.

I'd far from call Mysticism weak for Pacal II.
Think about this. He's got a good early barb defender, fast workers, fast granaries. I'd say he's honestly a good leader for an early religion.

 

[Higher Game]

The Landsknecht is an unusual unit as it will actually target seige weapons against an incoming stack as I inadvertantly found out durinan RPC, the exception is if crossbows are in the stack.

It will often lose to those catapults, too. You certainly don't want to try to attack cities with them, either. I can't even think of a situation where they do well.

Jags have 2 free promotions and can easily get woodsman III which is a great healing unit throughout the game. They can also move fast through enemy forrests jungles to pillage behind enemy lines.

They're great against barbarians, too. There are times when the reduced strength hurts them, though.

Dog soldiers are the only unit other than war elephants that will stand toe to toe with Prats (well almost). Also starting a Dog rush after the first 2 techs WITHOUT copper is pretty nasty for close leaders.

Hmm, no. They get chewed up by any mounted unit and they aren't a threat to archers; even chariots rush better due to their speed. They're great at melee but are worse at everything else. It's a bad UU.

Numidian I have already defended.

Poorly. Flanking and extra strength against melee don't make up for poor performance against archers. If an AI is loaded with melee units, you ready for a siege war; horse archers are for rapidly taking archer-defended cities. The Numidian cavalry looks impressive, but it's worse at its ideal role.

Panzers and Ballistas problems are that they replace extremely powerful units already so getting anything else seams trivial.

The ballista elephant's improvement is almost useless because of how the AI plays. The panzer at least tends to see use, although late.

I couldn't have put it better myself.
Maybe it it had an attack -bonus- against mounted units it'd be worthwhile.
I'm also glad to hear I'm not the only one to think that Dog Soldiers and Landsknechts are bad.
I'm... I can't vote on jaguars. I'm really, really. really awful at Montezuma. I've never managed to win a game with him since his trait change.

Monty has one of the strongest unique buildings in the game. Get it and whip some tail.