BEST Female Leaders for Civ VII?

[Evie]

I'd honestly rank Lili'uokalani differently on account that really, by the time she had any power the bayonet constitution had already put the writing firmly on the wall. When an anti-monarchist, pro-US annexation group has already written your constitution (without legislature approval) at gunpoint to strip the monarchy of Most power and concentrate power in their hands (with voting requirements that already put the power in their hands), you either surrender quietly or go down fighting and hope for a miracle.

She tried the later. It didn't work, but frankly it's doubtful anything would have at that point.

Not to say she was a great ruler, but the vast majority of the takeover by pro-American anti-monarchist predates her reign.

 

[pineappledan]

If you think that Lili’uokalani could have done things differently, or somehow actively hastened her own monarchy’s end then enlighten us.

The Hawaiian people had been reduced to 1/3rd of their pre-contact population by the time of her reign. The bayonet constitution and the permanent lease on pearl harbour had been signed by her cousin, Kalaka’ua when he was king. Her predecessor had already been put under permanent house arrest by the Americans, who had been calling for Hawaii’s annexation for 2 different presidencies. There was no heir apparent; her nephew, the only child born the Kamehameha line in a generation died at the age of 4.

When Lili’uokalani took the throne she was already leading a decimated kingdom with seemingly no future, and a harbour full of foreign gunboats parked next to her capital. She did everything that could have been expected of her and faced the end of her dynasty with dignity. Comparing her to someone like Cixi who killed and imprisoned her own nephews when they tried to reform, is a horrible misreading of the situation.

 

[Patine]

If you think that Lili’uokalani could have done things differently, or somehow actively hastened her own monarchy’s end then enlighten us.

The Hawaiian people had been reduced to 1/3rd of their pre-contact population by the time of her reign. The bayonet constitution and the permanent lease on pearl harbour had been signed by her cousin, Kalaka’ua when he was king. Her predecessor had already been put under permanent house arrest by the Americans, who had been calling for Hawaii’s annexation for 2 different presidencies. There was no heir apparent; her nephew, the only child born the Kamehameha line in a generation died at the age of 4.

When Lili’uokalani took the throne she was already leading a decimated kingdom with seemingly no future, and a harbour full of foreign gunboats parked next to her capital. She did everything that could have been expected of her and faced the end of her dynasty with dignity. Comparing her to someone like Cixi who killed and imprisoned her own nephews when they tried to reform, is a horrible misreading of the situation.

I'd honestly rank Lili'uokalani differently on account that really, by the time she had any power the bayonet constitution had already put the writing firmly on the wall. When an anti-monarchist, pro-US annexation group has already written your constitution (without legislature approval) at gunpoint to strip the monarchy of Most power and concentrate power in their hands (with voting requirements that already put the power in their hands), you either surrender quietly or go down fighting and hope for a miracle.

She tried the later. It didn't work, but frankly it's doubtful anything would have at that point.

Not to say she was a great ruler, but the vast majority of the takeover by pro-American anti-monarchist predates her reign.

This all being said, then, other than her being a Queen Regnant in the, "Best Female Ruler for Civ VII," what quality do you possibly see her having that makes her worthy of suggesting, even among Queens Regnant, Queens Dowager, or Queens Regent in history. I mean, you have a point that my first comparison was not really correct, but now we're talking a leader comparable to Emiir Sayyid Mir Muhammad Alim Khan of Bukhara (whose only admirable achievement prior to the Bolshevik-backed Young Bukharan Revolution in tandem with the Revolution of the Russian Empire his state was in firm and solid vassalage to, was clamping down on internal bribery) as another of another such figure of tragic ignomaty dealt tragic hands by being at the end of a fully vassal or protectorate system of a nation that is a pale shadow of what it once was, with no true independence, about to have the final hammer come down on that? I concede to being corrected on the comparison to Nicholas II or Cixi, but now that I am so enlightened, I must ask, how is she anymore Civ leader material than those two?

 

[Zaarin]

This all being said, then, other than her being a Queen Regnant in the, "Best Female Ruler for Civ VII," what quality do you possibly see her having that makes her worthy of suggesting, even among Queens Regnant, Queens Dowager, or Queens Regent in history. I mean, you have a point that my first comparison was not really correct, but now we're talking a leader comparable to Emiir Sayyid Mir Muhammad Alim Khan of Bukhara (whose only admirable achievement prior to the Bolshevik-backed Young Bukharan Revolution in tandem with the Revolution of the Russian Empire his state was in firm and solid vassalage to, was clamping down on internal bribery) as another of another such figure of tragic ignomaty dealt tragic hands by being at the end of a fully vassal or protectorate system of a nation that is a pale shadow of what it once was, with no true independence, about to have the final hammer come down on that? I concede to being corrected on the comparison to Nicholas II or Cixi, but now that I am so enlightened, I must ask, how is she anymore Civ leader material than those two?

I'm inclined to agree that Nafanua or Salamasina of Samoa are probably both better candidates for female rulers from Polynesia. Salamasina is probably the less mythologized of the two. The real question is, will Firaxis just turn her into Moana like they turned Kupe into Maui?

 

[Evie]

Oh, I'm not saying Lili'uokani is a great candidate for the game. Just, yeah, that comparison was bad.

(She did apparently manage to get a cholera outbreak under control with strict controls, which, hey, some modern politicians could have learned from, but still slim pickings)

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I'm inclined to agree that Nafanua or Salamasina of Samoa are probably both better candidates for female rulers from Polynesia. Salamasina is probably the less mythologized of the two. The real question is, will Firaxis just turn her into Moana like they turned Kupe into Maui?

I think any Polynesian leader might run that risk. I do think if they do a proper Hawaii civ they could just reuse Kamehameha again.

I'd support Salamasina even if she did look like Moana though.

Even if she is the less mythologized of the two, she'd also be the less aggressive one and have a more peaceful playstyle.

 

[pineappledan]

Depends on what you’re looking for as the “best” female leader.

If you’re looking for someone with raw, mythic propaganda value, you might look at Boudicca, Semiramis, Dido, or Cleopatra, who embody archetypes of female headship (often at the expense of reality).

If the metric is a woman who ruled at the absolute height of their respective nation’s power, you can look to Victoria of Britain, or Margaret I of Denmark, or even Tamar of Georgia.

If you are looking for a woman leader who can translate into interesting gameplay, upon whom you can hang leader abilities that aren’t cookie-cutter military bonuses, you might look at Jigonhsasee or Liki’uokalani, who would work well with some gamified diplomatic bonuses, or Hatshepsut for trade bonuses.

 

[pineappledan]

I think any Polynesian leader might run that risk. I do think if they do a proper Hawaii civ they could just reuse Kamehameha again.

If you want Hawaii to be a bog-standard conqueror civ then sure. My vote is still with Kalaka’ua, who would typify more of a cultural/tourism playstyle which I think would fit Hawaii well.

 

[Zaarin]

I think any Polynesian leader might run that risk. I do think if they do a proper Hawaii civ they could just reuse Kamehameha again.

I'd support Salamasina even if she did look like Moana though.

Even if she is the less mythologized of the two, she'd also be the less aggressive one and have a more peaceful playstyle.

Less mythologized was meant to be a recommendation not a criticism.

Hatshepsut for trade bonuses.

She absolutely belongs in your second category. Hatshepsut was one of the most effective and powerful pharaohs without reference to sex.

upon whom you can hang leader abilities that aren’t cookie-cutter military bonuses, you might look at Jigonhsasee

TBH I think the Haudenosaunee are a poor choice for anything but being one of the most ultramilitarist civs in the game. From the founding of their confederacy until their collapse in the wake of the American Revolution, they were in a state of perpetual warfare to sustain their numbers and avenge their losses (mourning wars) and to dominate the fur trade (Beaver Wars). If you want a peaceful Native American civ, look elsewhere. Civ5's portrayal of the Iroquois was sadly romanticized nonsense.

 

[Evie]

I'd tend to think the Iroquois UA should be some kind of mourning war war centric mechanism - but there's room for a less warlike leader ability to complement it (diplomacy could certainly be appropriate).

Militaristic UA on top of militaristic LA should be very rare overall IMO.

 

[Patine]

Depends on what you’re looking for as the “best” female leader.

If you’re looking for someone with raw, mythic propaganda value, you might look at Boudicca, Semiramis, Dido, or Cleopatra, who embody archetypes of female headship (often at the expense of reality).

If the metric is a woman who ruled at the absolute height of their respective nation’s power, you can look to Victoria of Britain, or Margaret I of Denmark, or even Tamar of Georgia.

If you are looking for a woman leader who can translate into interesting gameplay, upon whom you can hang leader abilities that aren’t cookie-cutter military bonuses, you might look at Jigonhsasee or Liki’uokalani, who would work well with some gamified diplomatic bonuses, or Hatshepsut for trade bonuses.

There's still a difference between non-cookie-cutter, and the doomed last gasps. I'd agree IMMENSELY so with your official choice of Kalaka'ua, BY FAR. I really don't see Liki’uokalani working at all attractively in a game like Civ.

 

[pineappledan]

From the founding of their confederacy until their collapse in the wake of the American Revolution, they were in a state of perpetual warfare [...] If you want a peaceful Native American civ, look elsewhere. Civ5's portrayal of the Iroquois was sadly romanticized nonsense.

Civ 5's portrayal of the Iroquois was as a stock militarist civ, with a UA called 'The Great Warpath'. What?

 

[Zaarin]

Civ 5's portrayal of the Iroquois was as a stock militarist civ, with a UA called 'The Great Warpath'. What?

Civ5's portrayal of the Iroquois was the stock Green Indian. The UA called "The Great Warpath" was simply treating Woods and Jungle as roads (the Haudenosaunee and deforestation is a different discussion). Perhaps the initial idea was "frontier warfare," but it was a playstyle that ultimately leant itself best to a peaceful culture-focused playstyle--and the devs seem to have been aware of this since Hiawatha's personality was peaceful and wonder-focused.

I do agree with Evie that the Haudenosaunee are prime candidates for a Mourning War CUA (I've proposed before that the Haudenosaunee gain population from razing cities) and a diplomatic LUA (I've also proposed before that they benefit from having allies at war with each other--and such a LUA would fit either Brant very well). Regardless, Civ5's Iroquois was definitely deep in romantic stereotype territory.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Less mythologized was meant to be a recommendation not a criticism.

I should clarify what I said. I meant that any Polynesian leader might run the risk of looking like a Disney character, especially in the art style of Civ 6. I agree with you that less mythologized figures are better.
Speaking of the way she would look I've always envisioned her as older and larger, sort of like Amanitore or Lady Six Sky if they were Polynesian, instead of looking like Moana.

TBH I think the Haudenosaunee are a poor choice for anything but being one of the most ultramilitarist civs in the game. From the founding of their confederacy until their collapse in the wake of the American Revolution, they were in a state of perpetual warfare to sustain their numbers and avenge their losses (mourning wars) and to dominate the fur trade (Beaver Wars). If you want a peaceful Native American civ, look elsewhere. Civ5's portrayal of the Iroquois was sadly romanticized nonsense.

I can see diplomacy working alongside warfare, as that's what Rough Rider Teddy does.

 

[Evie]

and the devs seem to have been aware of this since Hiawatha's personality was peaceful and wonder-focused.

I mean, peaceful *is* what I would expect Hiawatha to be based on the entire story (note lack of "hi") of the founding of the Confederacy. You can't have the peace-advocating great speaker and disciple of the Great Peacemaker who famously combed the wrath out of the hair of the first chieftain of the Confederacy be some warmonger.

...which is why a semi-mythological Hiawatha is a pretty bad choice for an Iroquois leader.

 

[Zaarin]

I mean, peaceful *is* what I would expect Hiawatha to be based on the entire story (note lack of "hi") of the founding of the Confederacy. You can't have the peace-advocating great speaker and disciple of the Great Peacemaker who famously combed the wrath out of the hair of the first chieftain of the Confederacy be some warmonger.

...which is why a semi-mythological Hiawatha is a pretty bad choice for an Iroquois leader.

All fair points, but I presume most Civ5 leaders were programmed to strike a balance between their historical personalities and the strengths of their civ's game design (e.g., the historical Hiawatha wasn't building very many wonders).

 

[Hellenism Salesman]

What about a familiar male leader with de jure power who had a well-known significant impact on history and an unfamiliar male leader with de facto power who had a less known, potentially less significant impact on history?

Well in that case I'd once again go for the unfamiliar candidate since people are less likely to hear about him on their own. However, that answer ultimately leads to a question between two unfamiliar de facto leaders, one male and one female. My answer to that dilemma would be the female candidate, because of the two she's the one people are less likely to learn about on their own.

Though, remember the context of my answers. A balance is necessary, and I'd prefer it. To me, part of the fun of learning about history is understanding how things fit within context/known information. We all begin with the context of the present, and then have to build the historical foundation of everything else. To learn about history, you need a familiar jumping off point. But at the same time, that familiarity began as unfamiliarity. You wouldn't be learning if you were never taught anything new.

 

[Hellenism Salesman]

Militaristic UA on top of militaristic LA should be very rare overall IMO.

*cough cough* That means you, Alex.

...or should I say that means me...?

Depends on what you’re looking for as the “best” female leader.

I just wanted to add that a leader who doesn't meet the criteria mentioned in your post can still be a valuable leader choice through their educational value. I know that's not as important to others as it is to me, but I'll argue in favor of it. Kristina was such a choice for me.

Also, if we want to have even a considerable number of options for female leaders then I don't think we should restrict ourselves to de jure power. As @Evie has reminded us, we should consider soft power.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

*cough cough* That means you, Alex.

...or should I say that means me...?

What do you mean? He's all about spreading Hellenistic culture and ideas.

I just wanted to add that a leader who doesn't meet the criteria mentioned in your post can still be a valuable leader choice through their educational value. I know that's not as important to others as it is to me, but I'll argue in favor of it. Kristina was such a choice for me.

I like Kristina too and think she was a great choice for Sweden, particularly because of her gameplay and how she synergized with the Nobel Prize ability. Instead of picking a female leader just for the sake of picking one we also need to look at what they could bring to their civilization in terms of gameplay as well.

 

[Hellenism Salesman]

What do you mean? He's all about spreading Hellenistic culture and ideas.

Yes, yes, of course.

I have my "occupation" on my profile set to "spreading Greek culture," and I once got a DM about it asking how one would do so.

Well, asking nicely, of course. And if that doesn't work, then I bring my friends (on their horses) and ask again.

we also need to look at what they could bring to their civilization in terms of gameplay as well.

Gameplay is extremely important, of course. Though, Firaxis often takes creative liberty with how they pair LUA designs with historical figures. I remember them once saying they make designs first and match history to it second.

I just want to emphasize Civ's platform for education.