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Best Leaders: A Democratic Method

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by moggydave, Aug 1, 2006.

  1. moggydave

    moggydave Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2005
    Messages:
    154
    NB. I've already posted this thread in the strategy and tips forum, but it hasn't got many responses and I've come to the conclusion that it's probably in the wrong forum really. This is a copy. I hope admin don't mind, delete the old one if you feel it nessessary.


    This is an attempt by myself at compiling together the general view of whom are the best leaders and who are the worst.

    The basic idea is, I need all of you to put each leader into tiers and post here. The rules are:
    -There must be 6 tiers. Tier 1 is top tier (best), whilst tier 6 is bottom tier (worst).
    -Each tier must have 6 leaders in it (6 tiers x 6 leaders= 36 leaders total).
    -Each list made must be clear and readable. Unclear list won't be counted.
    -Those who do not have warlords are discouraged from voting.
    -Those who do not have warlords but really really want to vote may do so but must still class every one of the 36 leaders based on educated estimates from these forums. These people must state that they don' have warlords.

    I will see how well this goes. If I don't get enough responses I'll allow the thread to die quietly.

    Assuming the thread gets a positive response results will be collected just before I go on holiday in about 2 weeks time.

    Results will be put together on a points basis.
    Top tier leaders get 6 points,
    2nd tier leaders get 5 points,
    3rd tier leaders get 4 points,
    etc etc
    Bottom tier leaders recieve one point.

    Get voting and thanks.
     
  2. Janook

    Janook Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2006
    Messages:
    43
    Too lazy to list 36 leaders...
    Augusts Ceaser is number 1, Luis XIV is number 2.
    Creative ftw.
     
  3. PaganPaulWhisky

    PaganPaulWhisky Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2006
    Messages:
    22
    Here it goes. Note that this is based on limited play experience with Warlords and a preference for domination style games.

    Tier 1
    Julius Caesar - Still the best, though I like expansive better w/ organized.
    Mehmed II - My favorite trait combo and great UU/UB.
    Gandhi - Saladin's old traits w/ fast worker will be very powerful.
    Elizabeth
    Cyrus - Early game monster. Massively improved.
    Hannibal

    Tier 2
    Wang Kon
    Augustus - Could easily be tier 1 because of praets.
    Napolean - Most improved leader. Should be a military powerhouse now.
    Victoria
    Mansa Musa
    Huayna Capac - Industrious is weak, but Quecha still gets free promo. Great UB (Basically provides creative trait for free).

    Tier 3
    Shaka
    Ragnar
    Asoka
    Hatshepsut - Only because of war chariots.
    Frederick - bad UU, but his trait combo is one of the best.
    Genghis Khan - UB gels with UU, good warmonger (Liked him much better before).

    Tier 4
    Peter - would be higher, but UB is awful and cossacks are less useful now.
    Catherine - Great leader on small maps.
    Tokugawa - Severely downgraded. Should be good for building powerful troops.
    Brennus - Don't like the UU.
    Isabella
    Alexander - Good traits but kind of a one trick pony.

    Tier 5
    Roosevelt - Awful UU, bad trait synergy although organized is still useful.
    Montezuma - Probably should be higher, but I don't like his trait combo.
    Kublai Khan - Probably the best leader in this tier.
    Churchill - Not bad, but this trait combo just doesn't appeal to me.
    Ramesses II - War chariots save him from the bottom tier.
    Washington - Yikes, did this guy get the axe or what?

    Tier 6
    Saladin - Most downgraded leader. Used to be a solid tier 1.
    Mao Zedong - Also used to be one of my favorties, now he sucks.
    Bismark - Awful UU and traits. Has always been one of my least favorite leaders.
    Stalin - It is fitting that he is so bad.
    Qin Shi Huang - Was much better in vanilla. Traits have some synergy at least.
    Louis XIV - Worst leader in the game.
     
  4. Acceptable_Loss

    Acceptable_Loss Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    Messages:
    86
    Location:
    Davis, CA
    I think you'll find that choosing the best leader depends on so many factors that it's impossible to name the best. It's impossible to even name those in the top tier. This is because we all have different playing styles, we all play with different settings and we play on different difficulties. It's also depends on wheather you play single or multiplayer..
    Evidence:


    That's one of the great things about Civilization: There is no right answer to this question.

    However, Even with this being the case, I will throw in my 2 cents.
    Tier 1.
    Monte
    Cyrus
    Mansa
    Ceaser
    Liz
    Hannibal



    All the middle tiers are too mish-mashed to determine

    Tier 6
    Louis
    Brennus
    Stalin
    Peter
    Washington
    Bismark
     
  5. yavoon

    yavoon King

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2006
    Messages:
    720
    there are more correct and less correct answers. just a lot of ppl are wrong.
     
  6. PMabey

    PMabey Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2006
    Messages:
    256
    Location:
    Quahog, Rhode Island
    Tier 1
    Hannibal
    Mansa Musa
    Cyrus
    Julius Caesar
    Alexander
    Ragnar

    Tier 2
    Huayna Capac
    Elizabeth
    Wang Kon
    Churchill
    Augustus Caesar
    Napoleon

    Tier 3
    Gandhi
    Victoria
    Ramasses
    Genghis
    Mehmed
    Shaka

    Tier 4
    Frederick
    Tokugawa
    Catherine
    Peter
    Montezuma
    Qin Shi Huang

    Tier 5
    Saladin
    Stalin
    Isabella
    Brennus
    Asoka
    Hatsheput

    Tier 6
    Washington
    Roosevelt
    Louis
    Kublai Khan
    Mao Zedong
    Bismark
     
  7. SkippyT

    SkippyT Who?

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2006
    Messages:
    1,262
    Location:
    Reykjavík, Iceland
    Tier 1
    Catherine of Russia
    Cyrus of Persia
    Victoria of England
    Montezuma of Mexico
    Elizabeth of England
    Hannibal of Carthage

    Tier 2
    Ramesses of Egypt
    Wang Kon of Korea
    Caesar of Rome
    Stalin of Russia
    Hatshepsut of Egypt
    Genghis Khan of Mongolia

    Tier 3
    Qin Shi Huang of China
    Roosevelt of America
    Ragnar of Scandinavia
    Kublai Khan of Mongolia
    Tokugawa of Japan
    Alexander of Greece

    Tier 4
    Augustus of Rome
    Washington of America
    Gandhi of India
    Frederick of Germany
    Saladin of Arabia
    Mehmed II of Turkey

    Tier 5
    Churchill of England
    Asoka of India
    Louis XIV of France
    Otto Bismarck of Germany
    Saladin of Arabia
    Mansa Musa of Mali

    Tier 6
    Peter of Russia
    Shaka of Zululand
    Isabella of Spain
    Napoleon of France
    Mao Zedong of China
    Brennus of Celtia
     
  8. Janook

    Janook Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2006
    Messages:
    43
    wtf "Louis XIV - Worst leader in the game."
     
  9. bassist2119

    bassist2119 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2006
    Messages:
    218
    MoggyDave - it would be interesting if you (or someone else) averaged everyone's preferences once you have sufficient data
     
  10. Cookie Crumbs

    Cookie Crumbs Emperor

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2006
    Messages:
    484
    Tier 1
    Ragnar
    Cyrus
    Elizabeth
    Huayna Capac
    Hannibal
    Gandhi

    Tier 2
    Victoria
    Julius Caesar
    Augustus Caesar
    Wang Kon
    Mansa Musa
    Montezuma

    Tier 3
    Genghis Khan
    Stalin
    Shaka
    Mehmed II
    Kublai Khan
    Rameses II

    Tier 4
    Asoka
    Tokugawa
    Louis XIV
    Napoleon
    Alexander
    Frederick

    Tier 5
    Winston Churchill
    Catherine
    Hatshepshut
    Isabella
    Washington
    Brennus

    Tier 6
    Peter
    Saladin
    Qin Shi Huang
    Bismarck
    Mao Zedong
    Roosevelt
     
  11. Lili?uokalan

    Lili?uokalan Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2007
    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    In the jungle… the mighty jungle…
    Hmmmmmmmm... I'm not sure about tier 2, 3, 4, or 5...
    Tier 1
    Hatsheptut :egypt:
    Cathrine :love:
    Ghandi :old:
    Gengis Khan :evil:
    Roosevelt :hatsoff:
    Mehmed 3 or 2? (Cool turban. Period.) :rockon:

    Tier 6

    Elizabeth
    Victoria
    Washington
    Tokowuga
    Isabella
    Montezuma [pissed]
     
  12. GeT_Kane

    GeT_Kane Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2007
    Messages:
    12
    Location:
    Sweden
    thx can be ery useful stuff.
     
  13. Hackapell

    Hackapell Rhetorician

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2007
    Messages:
    527
    Location:
    The City of Blinding Lights
    Tier 1:
    Elizabeth
    Hannibal
    Julius Ceasar
    Mehmed II
    Augustus Ceasar
    Cyrus
    Tier 2:
    Frederick II
    Ragnar
    Tokugawa
    Asoka
    Qin shi huang
    Churchill
    Tier 3:
    Mansa Musa
    Bismarck
    Peter
    Victoria
    Ghandi
    Ghengis Khan
    Tier 4
    Ramses the Great
    Stalin
    Shaka
    Louis XIV
    Napoleon
    Wang Kon
    Tier 5:
    Brennus
    Saladin
    Mao Zedong
    Roosevelt
    Washington
    Hapshetsut
    Tier 6:
    Montezuma
    Isabella
    Catherine
    Kublai Khan
    Huyana Capac (keeps beating me at space race:mad: )
    Alexander
     
  14. Martinoheat

    Martinoheat Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2006
    Messages:
    24
    Teir 1- Napoleon, Mehmed II, Churchill, Brennus, Stalin and Cyrus

    Teir 2- Shaka, Peter, Julius Caesar, Augustus Caesar, Hannibal and Louis The 14th

    Teir 3- Huayna Capac , Franklin D. Roosevelt, Mao Zedong, Alexander, Ramesses II ,Frederick

    Teir 4- Tokugawa , Genghis Khan, Kublai Khan, Saladin, Catherine and George Washington

    Teir 5- Montezuma, Bismarck, Qin Shi Huang, Ghandi, Mansa Musa and Ragnar

    Teir 6- Asoka , Isabella, Elizabeth , Victoria , Wang Kon and Hatshepsut
     
  15. Dubzilla8

    Dubzilla8 Just Right of Center

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2006
    Messages:
    89
    Okay, here is my crack at it. I haven't been able to play with everyone yet, so a lot of mine is based off of how the AI plays with the leader.

    Tier 1:
    Huayna Cupac: Undoubtedly the best, not just for players, but AI to.
    Hannibal: He is in EVERY game I play at random, and he is always winning.
    Augustus: Anyone can win with this guy.
    Julius: Anyone can win with this guy.
    Elizabeth: Perfect for the CE, I think. Cottages and an excellent GP Farm.
    Mansa Muse: Don't like to play with him, but he techs like a mad man.

    Tier 2:
    Victoria: Great traits, my second highest score.
    Churchill: My favorite person of all time, I was disappointed he has protective but I just played my first game with him ever and more than doubled my highest score ever.
    Ramesses II: Great UU, good traits.
    Ghandi: Always leading in tech. But always an easy target.
    Asoke: Same as Ghandi.
    Napoleon: Great traits, shafted on the UU (I expect him to be much better in BTS). I need to play with this guy, I think he and Ragnar are the only Aggressive AI's that can compete.

    Tier 3:
    Hatshepsut: Pretty average in general. Gets the nod for the UU and traits.
    Alexander: My first prince win, ever. Great UB and Good UU. I like Philosophical even though I hardly ever go into a game planning to use it.
    Mehmed II: Always seems to be a target next to me. Not much to say about him but I like his traits decently enough.
    Frederick: I like the Panzer, though it comes late.
    Wang Kon: Financial is overpowered and Hwachas are just nastiness. He would be higher if it weren't for Protective.
    Louis XIV: Don't have much to say for him. Im iffy.

    Tier 4:
    Ragnar: Has proven able to come back from behind with Financial. Disappointed with the UU and UB.
    Brennus: Great traits, CRUDDY UU and UB. And I just...for some reason...don't like him.
    Stalin: My boy, I love Soviet history. I always thought Industrial would be my favorite trait but I find it disappointing. A tech lead will get you the wonders you really need.
    Cyrus: WHAT!? Cyrus fourth! I played a few games with him and couldn't get him down for some reason. No dice, Persia.
    Isabella: Psycho is always scary to be around, but never goes any where.
    Peter: Currently playing with him. Mixed feelings right now but I like him enough for a tier 3 promotion. We'll see.

    Tier 5:
    Shaka: Always behind.
    Washington: Ah...America...My love. Why dost thou suckest so? Anyway, I have a hard time putting a Charismatic leader below 3, but man does the mall and Navy SEALs suck so bad.
    Mao: Nothing to impress me with.
    Saladin: Hate to attack him, just found that out. But garbage compared to Vanilla.
    Qin Shi Huang: Nothing to impress me with.
    Bismarck: Again, Industrial is disappointing. I like Frederick better.

    Tier 6:
    Montezuma: Always in the stone age. I like Jags in a thick jungle though.
    Genghis Khan: Keshiks aren't what they should be. I really like Genghis in history, so Id like to see him improved. UB is bush league to.
    Kublai Khan: Pretty much the same as Genghis.
    Roosevelt: Ah, my favorite leader, right there with Churchill. So disappointing.
    Catherine: My most played leader in Vanilla, she really got hit with the nerf launcher.
    Tokugawa: Reminds me of The Last Samurai, only its more like clubmen, instead of Samurai, versus the Mobile Infantry in Starship Troopers.

    There it is, to the best of my ability. I really think it comes down to traits for the most part. Charismatic is really growing on me, Financial is ridiculous, Philosophical and Spiritual are always nice, even Expansive is showing me some things. I like this post, hope more people do it.
     
  16. xfactor99

    xfactor99 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    134
    Location:
    san jose, ca
    Tier 1:
    Julius Caesar - Prateorians.
    Augustus Caesar - Praetorians.
    Elizabeth I - Phi/Fin is an awesome combination
    Hannibal - Financial/Charismatic is a powerful combo. You'll have no problems with your economy with him.
    Cyrus - I've done very well with him in the past
    Alexander the Great
    Tier 2:
    Huayna Capac
    Mehmed II
    Mansa Musa
    Shaka
    Frederick the Great
    Mathama Gandhi
    Tier 3:
    Peter the Great
    Otto von Bismarck
    Ramesses II
    George Washington
    Ragnar Lodbrok
    Genghis Khan
    Tier 4:
    Wang Kon
    Tokugawa Ieyasu
    Franklin Roosevelt
    Napoleon Bonaparte
    Kublai Khan
    Qin Shi Huang
    Tier 5:
    Isabella
    Asoka
    Joseph Stalin
    Hatshepsut
    Victoria I
    Louis XIV
    Tier 6:
    Montezuma
    Catherine the Great
    Saladin
    Winston Churchill
    Mao Zedong
    Brennus
     
  17. xfactor99

    xfactor99 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    134
    Location:
    san jose, ca
    I have way too much spare time on my hands, so I calculated exactly what the thread creator was intending to do. If I have yet more time later on, I might calculate the standard deviation, but there needs to be a bigger sample size for that to mean much.

    Hannibal Barca 42
    Elizabeth I 41
    Julius Caesar 40
    Cyrus the Great 39
    Augustus Caesar 36
    Mahatma Gandhi 33
    Mansa Musa 33
    Mehmed II 32
    Ragnar Lodbrok 32
    Huayna Capac 31
    Victoria I 31
    Wang Kon 30
    Alexander the Great 27
    Frederick the Great 27
    Ramesses II 27
    Genghis Khan 26
    Napoleon Bonaparte 25
    Asoka 23
    Shaka 23
    Tokugawa Ieyasu 22
    Winston Churchill 22
    Hatshepsut 21
    Joseph Stalin 20
    Montezuma I 19
    Peter the Great 19
    Qin Shi Huang 19
    Catherine the Great 17
    George Washington 16
    Kublai Khan 16
    Louis XIV 16
    Otto von Bismarck 15
    Brennus 14
    Franklin Roosevelt 14
    Isabella I 14
    Saladin 11
    Mao Zedong 9
     
  18. SandmanPiers

    SandmanPiers Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2007
    Messages:
    21
    Tier 1
    Augustus
    Huayna Capac
    Wang Kon
    Elizabeth
    Gandhi
    Ragnar
    Tier 2
    Churchill
    Julius Caesar
    Cyrus
    Asoka
    Mehmed II
    Hannibal
    Tier 3
    Kublai Khan
    Mansa Musa
    Qin Shi Huang
    Montezuma
    Shaka
    Napoleon
    Tier 4
    Catherine
    Genghis Khan
    Victoria
    Alexander
    Isabella
    Brennus
    Tier 5
    Peter
    Frederick
    Ramesses II
    Washington
    Roosevelt
    Louis XIV
    Tier 6
    Stalin
    Tokugawa
    Bismarck
    Hatshepsut
    Mao Zedong
    Saladin
     
  19. jeejeep

    jeejeep qwertyuiop

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2005
    Messages:
    920
    Location:
    Washington, DC
    Tier 1: Hannibal, Cyrus, Huayna Capac, Wang Kon, Ragnar, Gandhi

    Tier 2: Hatshepsut, Elizabeth, Brennus, Mansa Musa, Napoleon, Augustus Caesar

    Tier 3: Washington, Louis, Rameses, Kublai Khan, Mehmed, Alexander.

    Tier 4: Victoria, Churchill, Asoka, Genghis Khan, Shaka, Montezuma

    Tier 5: Roosevelt, Catherine, Julius Caesar, Qin Shi Huang, Saladin, Tokugawa

    Tier 6: Isabella, Mao Zedong, Frederick, Bismarck, Peter, Stalin
     
  20. magicalsushi

    magicalsushi Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    Messages:
    573
    Location:
    Oxford, UK
    The OP didn't make very clear exactly what he meant by 'best'. Are we talking about the ones you most enjoy playing with? The ones you do best with? The ones the AI do best with? The ones who you think were coolest in real life? The ones with the best hair? God knows.

    I'm going to go with a mixture of the first and second of those criteria. I don't get to play nearly as often as I'd like to, so most of these are guesses about how I'd feel about using a leader, but hopefully it's worth at least something.

    Tier 1

    Bismarck - I can understand why everyone else hates him, but I usually play OCC and he works well for that.
    Elizabeth - All the tech you can eat. Redcoats too.
    Mansa Musa - Cultural win in the bag!
    Huayna Capac - Good traits, great UU, fantastic UB!
    Ragnar - Even I like to pick fights when I'm Ragnar!
    Mehmed II - Nice trait combo, and love the UU and UB.

    Tier 2

    Tokugawa - Cool traits, albeit with a mediocre UU and UB.
    Montezuma - Sacrficial altars more than make up for the lacklustre UU.
    Gandhi - Another cultural victory candidate.
    Julius Caesar - Insanely good UU, decent UB and traits which let you grab lots of land and afford to keep it.
    Frederick - Next best thing to the forbidden Fin + Org combo.
    Augustus Caesar - See JC.

    Tier 3

    Catherine - Easy to grab land, or steal some later with Cossacks.
    Churchill - Next best thing to Agg + Cha.
    Isabella - Her UU and UB make war fun.
    Cyrus - Promotions and GGs aplenty.
    Ramesses II - Yet another cultural victory candidate. I don't like his UU or UB much, however.
    Asoka - Nice traits, nice UU.

    Tier 4

    Victoria - Nice all-rounder.
    Shaka - Not really one for me, but you have to respect his traits and UB.
    Wang Kon - It seems almost unfair to be using rocket launchers so early.
    Hatshepsut - It's nice not to worry about border expansion or civics changes.
    Saladin - Quite versatile.
    Kublai Khan - Not used him, but can see the appeal.

    Tier 5

    Roosevelt - Meh.
    Napoleon - Excellent warmonger traits, but I'm just not a warmonger.
    Hannibal - I'm sure he's great, but not for me.
    Qin Shi Huang - Don't get me wrong, Cho Ko Nus are cool.
    Mao Zedong - Dunno.
    Peter - Dunno.

    Tier 6

    Brennus - Does nothing for me.
    Louis XIV - Good warmonger traits, but I'm no warmonger so they don't make up for the terrible UU and UB.
    Genghis Khan - Would probably work nicely with a pillage economy, but I'm not into that.
    Stalin - Anti-synergetic traits.
    Alexander - Ick, yet another warmonger leader...
    Washington - Awful.

    To be honest, tiers 4 and 5 blend together for me. It's only the tier 6 leaders I really dislike, and even then only a few of them.
     

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