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Best Metro Systems

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by hobbsyoyo, Dec 4, 2019.

  1. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Deity

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    Some students at our engineering university Delft (specialised in innovation and green stuff) had some nice ideas for hyperloop systems and founded directly Hardt in 2016, and did win the Elon Musk international contest in 2017.
    Time to increase the testing tube of 30 meter near the university to a larger 3 km tube.
    Their working plan is to draft design a hyperloop connection between the airports of Schiphol (Amsterdam) and Frankfurt am Main, with a travelling time of 50 minutes.

    Provincial government of Groningen organised European money to build a larger test centre in Groningen good for the declining rural economy.
    The province Groningen a rural fly-over area, but moreover between the sea and another fly-over area... empty.

    However.
    The few people living there do not want that tube in their backyard :sad:
     
  2. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    This is odd to me but I guess the travel times by road are sufficiently short that they don't feel the need to have the additional transit option. Something that the video I linked to made me realize is for the long-distance Amtrak lines (which they are toying with cutting), those routes are the only public transit link to the outside world for far-flung villages and hamlets. Ridership isn't high because the towns themselves are small but for anyone who doesn't have a car or can't make ~5-10 hour drives to go anywhere, the train is a great option.

    Or maybe the hyperloop route would not have stations at those towns so they'd get no benefit? I can't imagine hyperloop being run efficiently and quickly if it has to stop every 5 miles / 7.5 km.
     
  3. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    Long distance Amtrak trains don't stop every 5 miles so I don't understand your comparison.
     
  4. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    In and around the urban corridors it can get that low, but you're right, they don't by and large. I just assumed that with the much shorter distances in the Netherlands that any train that doesn't stop every ~5 miles would pass through so many towns without servicing them that it would be opposed on those grounds.
     
  5. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    Yeah, it can be a difficult balance. But I figure if it has to stop every five miles, it's probably not a good candidate for high speed.
     
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  6. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    I used to get mad that there are 3+ rail networks around me that all operate separately but now I get it as they serve different functions. It's still kind of dumb that their web interfaces and information packets don't reference each other very much at all as this makes trip planning frustrating at times but oh well. I'm fortunate to live down the street from a station that connects easily to all of the different local rail networks even if it takes a bit of time to go places. I pretty much have to make a 1 hour trip into LA to connect anywhere except south to San Diego but honestly that's pretty much the case with all other forms of transit in the region as well and is a function of geography and where I live more than anything else.
     
  7. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    Yeah, Chicago is probably one of the largest rail hubs so there are many choices.
     
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  8. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    A group of my friends recently went all the way to Chicago from Irvine. They had fun but were sick of each by the time they got back! :lol:
     
  9. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    I doubt it they had driven it would have ended differently.
     
  10. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Deity

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    On profitability (your Amtrak lines):
    There is in Groningen a normal rail network that together with public busses connect most villages.
    The loss of roughly 50% on operating is paid by the government.

    It is imo not possible to have a somewhat adequate public transport in the rural provinces in NL that would break even.
    If I say it more blunt in general: all our rural provinces are lossmakers subsidised by the urban areas (All farmers and on top a lot by salaries of civil services, social securities, education and health care salaries). Many initiatives during especially the 50ies and 60ies in the 20th century to counter this with generous public capital investments and subsidising companies have in effect failed.
    But because this subsidising was done our income inequality in NL is not that big.
    The best long term way forward I see is to concentrate the working population along a few logistic connections and convert the rest into national parks, forests, lakes, bog areas with eco-farms in them with on top some holiday resorts, welness centres and pensioneers.


    That 3 km tube in Groningen would only be for testing for R&D
    The objective is to draft an Amsterdam - Frankfurt connection of 450 km, connecting two big intercontinental airports, which are also hubs for continental flights and other mass transportations.
    National plans in NL include a high speed train between the city Groningen and Amsterdam (200 km) but I doubt that will ever become a tube. Most money the coming 20 years or so will anyway go to light rail connecting the bigger cities in Holland (Amsterdam-Utrecht-Rotterdam-The Hague and the urbanisation areas in between those cities along the existing rail and motorways. Together a dense crescent moon around a big green polder that should stay green).
    New residential areas for our population growth, mainly from migrants, to be build along that light rail and NOT in existing green and rural areas. Densification.

    The reason to build that test tube in rural Groningen is space (also at low cost)
    And the Provincial authorities happy with any activity that increases economy with higher value jobs.
     
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  11. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Deity

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    The local train that goes Eastward from the city Groningen to the German border has a station stop roughly every ~6 km

    EDIT
    checking it out:
    The train between Groningen and Weener (the German border) drives every hour from 06.00 to 23.00 and has in total 11 stations on a 60 km track.
    At every station 1 or 2 busses wait for the train passengers before they go north and south, perpendicular on the east-west train track.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2019
  12. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    We have commuter trains like that into the city, but they're not being considered for high speed rail service.
     
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  13. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    You'd end up wasting a ton of energy accelerating fora high speed service with that many stops. Regenerative breaking helps when available but I think it only recaptures about 30-50% of the energy spent on acceleration.
     
  14. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    Yeah, I see the real benefit on runs like Chicago-Milwaukee of Chicago-St Louis.
     
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  15. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    Houston-Dallas, LA-Vegas and San Fran-LA too. Maybe Paris-Berlin? Is the Chunnel high speed?

    NY-Boston-DC already have a high-ish speed line
     
  16. AdrienIer

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    Paris-London is already high speed, only a 2h15 trip. Paris-Frankfurt is under 4h. Paris-Amsterdam around 3h20. High speed is the norm in western Europe
     
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  17. uppi

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    Even if the energy was not a problem, additional stops have a large impact on the effective speed of a train line. If there was a 2-minute stop every 5 km, even a hypothetical vehicle instantly accelerating to light speed would have an effective speed of 150 km/h. High-speed rail only makes sense if there is enough distance between stops. This has the unfortunate effect, that many people living next to the line only have the disturbance but no benefit from a high-speed rail line, because is will not stop anywhere nearby. With conventional rail, you can have slower trains using the same tracks to provide benefits for more stops (although you would want at 3- or 4-lane track for that). The problem with Hyperloop (and similar concepts) is that having many stops would defeat the point so that it will only provide benefits to those living near the far-spread stops.

    The main reason why high-speed rail is much faster in France than it is in Germany is that the trains stop much less in France, due to France being much more centralized and not federalized. The most egregious example in Germany is probably the town of Montabaur, which very few people would know if it was not for its high-speed rail stop.
     
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  18. Owen Glyndwr

    Owen Glyndwr La Femme Moderne

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    I mean, they're also way cheaper, more efficient, and less environmentally destructive, as compared to servicing an equal population via cars.

    So...50%
     
  19. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    No love for buses?
     
  20. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    No, buses are terrible unless you are going a few blocks across town.
     

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