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Best Musketman replacement?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by IAM, Jun 12, 2010.

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Best Musketman replacement?

  1. standard musketman is fine (most civs)

    2 vote(s)
    1.1%
  2. Musketeer (French)

    16 vote(s)
    9.0%
  3. Janissary (Ottoman)

    45 vote(s)
    25.3%
  4. Oromo Warrior (Ethiopian)

    115 vote(s)
    64.6%
  1. Artichoker

    Artichoker Emperor

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    When I first saw the stats of the Oromo, I was almost sure that they made a mistake in designing the UU. It just has too many bonuses to be put on the same level as the other Musketmen UUs.


    But perhaps this extra power was intentional, by design...for sure, there are other parts of the game that are much more unbalanced than this unit.
     
  2. shyuhe

    shyuhe Deity

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    I don't understand the love for Oromos. They get owned by knights, whereas Janissaries do not. Given the AI's love for mounted units, I'd much rather have Janissaries as stack cover than Oromos. Oromos with drill IV promoted to rifles are fun though.
     
  3. IAM

    IAM Emperor

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    I like all the musket replacements but the free promotions that upgrade are just too good to pass up. Off the top of my head I can't think of another Unique Unit that gets two free promotions that upgrade. Are there any?
     
  4. mirthadir

    mirthadir Emperor

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    Where is the option for Toko's muskets?

    On lower difficulties I think Jans have the oromo beat. You can much more easily get the killer combo of gunpowder + draft before the AI can get gunpowder itself; steamrolling the AI without cannons or perhaps any siege. The lib -> nat -> taj makes for a strong quick burst of drafting with minimal disruption as you tech out to cannons to keep the Jans alive longer.

    On higher difficulties even with their bonuses, jans they just aren't as cost effective as cannons, particularly if you aren't in a position to trade for nationalism at gunpowder. If you are going to have to fight an infantry war, then oromos beat Jans handily with upgrades.

    In large part, I think it is hard to ignore the leaders here. Zara tends to have an easier shot at snagging land and recovering quick; org on immort or diety is massive for gold; and the haman is a better draft building.

    If you find some really easy AIs (backstabbing, low unit prob, etc.) and can get both a numbers/tech lead; musketeers destroy either. 1 pop draft + 2 move makes for a lot of *cheap* cannon fodder (and better 2 of the 3 french are charismatic). Beelining gunpowder and then physics lets you get a huge army that can be continiously renewed once you completely kill your first victim.
     
  5. The Mike

    The Mike Warlord

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    Oromos are awesome, but I when I roll a French leader, I immediately start planning my 2-move superstack of Musketeers + Mounted. Offers great stack defense and promotion diversity to make the mobile stack even more dangerous.

    I've never been a big fan of Janissaries... I think their window of usefulness is too small.
     
  6. pi-r8

    pi-r8 Luddite

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    But what if it's a choice between, say, 12 musketeers or 10 Oromos, both supported by 5 cannons? I don't think that's an unreasonable situation.
     
  7. §L¥ Gµ¥

    §L¥ Gµ¥ Prince

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    oromo, without a doubt. 2 free promotions is better than a mobility increase or bonuses that disappear after upgrades.
     
  8. Absolute Zero

    Absolute Zero Settler

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    Musketeers and Oromos have the same hammer cost, why would there be more Musketeers?
     
  9. Iranon

    Iranon Deity Whipping Boy

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    First, something about the nature of first strikes: When testing their effects, it's easy to underestimate them. Their effect on survival odds against healthy and more ore less equal units on neutral terrain doesn't show them at their best. If testing a Drill-promoted one against one with another relevant promotion things become particularly bad because there is a jump point at strength ratio to survival odds at 1.0.

    However, more than other types of promotions, those that grant first strikes increase the chances of:
    winning an easy battle unscathed
    damaging a superior/entrenched unit in an unfavourable battle
    winning a fight against a tough but wounded unit
    putting up a good fight when wounded

    *

    Now, back to the units at hand.

    Against melee units, Oromos have at least 2.5 first strikes over regular Muskets or Janissaries... 4 if we assume 2 promotions along the Drill line (Drill 4 Oromos, Drill 2 for the others). Even 2.5 first strikes are fully equal to a +25% modifier in my opinion.

    Against archery units, the first strike immunity will give us at least one effective first strike on top of that for a minimum of 3.5, which I consider far preferable to a +25% bonus.
    If either unit has Drill promotions it can get ridiculous... in an extreme case of 2 Drill promotions for us, 4 for the opponent, the Oromo ends up 8.5 first strikes ahead. Advantage Oromo, by a considerable margin.

    Janissaries have nothing against gunpowder units, Oromos are still 2.5 first strikes ahead. The same applies to siege units, only here the collateral damage reduction for the Drill line becomes very relevant.

    This leaves mounted units. Nothing for Oromos in my opinion (sure, I can give them Formation right away but I ususually won't want to) while Janissaries outdo defending Pikemen on rough terrain and do well enough against knights on the attack.
    As stack defenders, Pikemen are adequate (when Janissaries would be better, the fight is likely to be rather lopsided in our favour anyway) and defending mounted units are rarely a big concern though.
    The bonus vs. mounted units keeps Janissaries from being absolutely dominated, but I still consider them a good deal worse. They're clearly better vs. one unit type rather than three, and mounted units are rarely the only concern.
    If we need to deal with knights or cuirassiers, we probably also want a unit that is strong against heavily fortified longbows or musketmen. The reverse isn't necessarily true - the mounted units in question come later than the equivalent city defenders and are heavily resource-dependent.
     
  10. vicawoo

    vicawoo Chieftain

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    Are you sure that's how first strike immunity works?
    Does a unit with 1 first strike and immunity get a first strike against a unit with 1 first strike?
    Either they subtract then cancel or cancel then subtract.
     
  11. InvisibleStalke

    InvisibleStalke Emperor

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    Musketeer definitely. Esp with Napoleon. They combine extremely well with Curaissers for a two move army that ignores castles and walls. Generally I will use flanking curaissers to weaken defenders (brutal on the Curies I know but those that win get a lot of XP for a charismatic leader), then musketeers to mop up, garrison or suicide as needed.

    Casualties are high, but drafted musketeers are very cheap and you can mass them very quickly. And the war is often over in 5 or 6 turns - which means that the high casualties are offset by the speed of the war and the fewer troops you end up facing.

    Musketeers always work wonders for me - the impact of a high speed unit that can be amassed very quickly is huge. Even in the late game I will have left over musketeers accompanying my tanks and helping to absorb collateral and playing a support / mop up role. I love these units.

    Janissaries never really have done it for me. They plod with the seige army. If you have cannons then really anything will do for mopping up - even axemen. If you are using trebs then they don't really add enough to your attack - city raider macemen will do as well or better. Stack defense against knights is easily handled by a couple of elephants or pikes. They are kind of a jack of all trades unit - good at everything, but not best at anything. And if I start thinking "yay I've got Janissaries I can conquer the world now" it never works.

    Oromo's are in between - much better attack units against longbows and offering a long term benefit when they are upgraded, but not as game changing as musketeers.
     
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  12. InvisibleStalke

    InvisibleStalke Emperor

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    Because the reinforcements reach the front faster.

    And for a fairer comparison your Oromos should be facing more enemies because the AI has had more turns to reinforce. (Although then you should really be pairing your musketeers with curies and not cannon).
     
  13. pi-r8

    pi-r8 Luddite

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    Yeah, like InvisibleStalke said, having faster units is often just as good as having more units. You can either threaten two places at the same time with two 1 move units, or threaten them both at the same time with 1 two move unit.
     
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  14. pi-r8

    pi-r8 Luddite

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    None of those things seem particularly useful to me. I mean, it's nice to have those things, it's definitely an advantage, but it's hard to think of reasonable scenarios where it would really make a difference. Do you really care whether your unit takes 1 point of damage when winning an easy battle? Does it really matter that it did 1 point of damage in a hopeless battle? Maybe, but... proooooobably not. The main thing is- will you be able to win the decisive battle against an enemy stack?
     
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  15. vicawoo

    vicawoo Chieftain

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    They certainly are useful, it's just that combat/cr/cg often does even better due to brute force.

    Doing no damage is a waste of a unit, doing some damage lowers their strength and their hp, giving your actual nutcrackers a higher chance of doing some damage.

    Taking little damage is more important when you're outnumbered.
     
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  16. Iranon

    Iranon Deity Whipping Boy

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    @ vicawoo: According to the interface, it does work that way, and the combat odds are consistent with that. First Strike Immunity wouldn't be too useful for Oromos otherwise, given how many they get already.

    ***

    @ pir-r8: These advantages are very important in unequal battles, and it becomes quite apparent in stack vs. stack (rather than unit vs. unit) considerations.

    For example, if Shaka comes my way with 100+ obsolescent units, I don't care whether my dozen defenders have 95% or 98% initial victory odds... I care about how many fights in a row they are likely to win, and here the chance to win a battle relatively unscathed matters. Later on, so does the performance when not at full hit points itself. Not directly related to first strikes, but the collateral damage reduction from the Drill line is also likely to become very useful.

    The advantage against wounded units comes into play any time we're clearing up after collateral damage.
    If collateral damage isn't practical for whatever reason (too few defenders to be worth using siege, too many high-withdrawal flankers to even risk even bringing them), the chance to wound significantly enters the picture.
    Despite worse initial odds, I may prefer a purely Drill-promoted force against a heavily fortified enemy: At first, the first strikes ensure a better chance to soften them up (again, I don't care whether my unit has 15 or 20% survival odds. I care whether it will reliably deal enough damage to allow the next in line to clean up), then they give better odds than other bonuses against weakened defenders.
     
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  17. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    It's nowhere near reasonable because you're going to get your butt handed to you if you invade with paltry forces like that.

    Much better to compare say 20-25 oromos and 23-28 musketeers, each with 15+ cannon. If we're using cannon it's hard for the oromos to come behind as they have much more staying power. This is not fair to the musketeer, because it only allows them to use movement as reinforcement and not as an offensive weapon. I am not impressed by musketeers vs AIs that put 5+ units in every single city and still carry a stack. When the opposition can not do that, suddenly musketeers aren't so bad...
     
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  18. vicawoo

    vicawoo Chieftain

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    A subtle boost to Flanking 2 Keshiks, more so vs protective.
     
  19. Artichoker

    Artichoker Emperor

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    They can move to the front lines more quickly.


    But depsite this advantage, many players still prefer the Oromo because of its strong bonuses...
     
  20. Fluroscent

    Fluroscent Emperor

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    I voted jans, for the simple reason that they are more practical for the use I would put them to. I like muskets to defend stacks and emergency defense/killing pillagers(particularly if no iron). Jans are better at this.
    Sure oromos are better in a vacuum, particularly at attacking cities, but I'd not bother beelining them for city attacks when CR maces/trebs+pike/Xbow is going to be better and earlier. For musket/cannon pushes, jans defend better vs mounted, which is the only thing to worry about until rifles.

    For MP I guess movement is king and musketeers win.
     
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