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Best Musketman replacement?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by IAM, Jun 12, 2010.

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Best Musketman replacement?

  1. standard musketman is fine (most civs)

    2 vote(s)
    1.1%
  2. Musketeer (French)

    16 vote(s)
    9.0%
  3. Janissary (Ottoman)

    45 vote(s)
    25.3%
  4. Oromo Warrior (Ethiopian)

    115 vote(s)
    64.6%
  1. InvisibleStalke

    InvisibleStalke Emperor

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    Well I tried again with Oromos and I just not that impressed compared to musketeers. If its a choice between Napoleon and Zara then I'm going with Napoleon.

    Individually Oromos are very good - the problem is that they aren't strong enough on their own to carry a war at a time when it is very difficult to war against the AI. Wait until cannons then they will do very well - but if you have a big army of cannons then ANYTHING will do well.

    All these comparisons with an army of cannons miss the main point. With musketeers I will not go to Steel, I will go to military tradition and partner my musketeers with Curaissers. I will get an army of musketeers and curaissers deployed much more quickly than an army of cannon and Oromos. Its a quicker tech path and my army will be concentrated much more quickly - on Epic I can expect to be ready to attack probably 25-30 turns earlier than going through Steel. That means I will be facing less ready opponents with lower tech themselves. And my horde will not give them any time to build more units.
     
    Orion Pax likes this.
  2. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

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    That definitely makes sense ;) Obviously this means that you have horses and probably a good EP support ( for the revolts, in spite of simple flanking cuiraseer en masse might be able to work sometimes ), things that are far from assured, but pairing musketeers with cannons is surely a nice way of nerfing the musketeer unique ability. It is almost as stupid as using keshiks with catapults :p
     
  3. mirthadir

    mirthadir Emperor

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    Question, aside from the ability to draft for cheap and some stack defense, what do you gain from musketeers over curis? It seems odd to me to wait for curis and to use musketeers. If you are going curis, it would seem to be better to stay in B or FS (getting to mil trad sooner); maybe prebuilding knights to cash promote at mil trad. If you are using musketeers, why not draft all of them up and forget the curis? Trading 2:1 with draftee musketeers is quite viable.

    If speed is the goal, it seems to me that musketeers alone is much better. If strength is the goal then curis do fine without support (though if you have em, a few musketeers are great for stack defense and city garrison duty).

    Rolo: actually Keshiks work well with pults. You kill the cap turn 0 with keshiks. You slow march an axe/spear/pult stack up to the next target while the keshiks heal, use the 2 moves to catch up, and then bombard/suicide the the pults. Net result is that your siege moves slowly, but is always useable (either as bombardment or suicide) while your keshiks heal and don't slow down the stack. As an added bonus, spears always get damaged by pults so you waste fewer units damaging those super units on hills.

    I actually find that mounted/siege warfare can be rather effective. The mounted takes most of the damage (minus disposable siege that I'm never to going to heal anyways) and can heal for a turn or two while the siege stack moves on (and then catch up). Pre-rifling the AI makes so few anti-mounted units a small amount of collateral decimates it. Often this shows up as pure mounted war followed by a siege/mounted war that extends the lifespan of an army and keeps the highly promoted units alive for longer. Running around late game with CV cav and cannons just destroys the ai.
     
  4. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

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    I meant cats + keshiks on the same stack :p

    There are two things that a cuir + musketeer stack have that either of them don't have alone:

    - musketeers get covered from knights attacks

    - cuirs can be covered by fortified musketters if needed

    But yes, it might be too little for justify delaying a offensive to get it.
     
  5. InvisibleStalke

    InvisibleStalke Emperor

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    Speed in force is the goal - if I add musketeers to my stack I have more than double the number of fast units. I will usually carry at least two rounds of drafting in each city except my capital, plus a round of whipping a Curie. So my stacks are probably 40% curies and 60% musketeers.

    With this many fast units cities fall really quickly. Walls and castles can be ignored and they make the seige of the day pretty useless anyway. Your catapults and maces can be reserved for taking out any counterattack. Cities with less that 60% culture on the flat or 40% on a hill can be taken by combat curies and garrisoned by musketeers (who can be relieved later by slower troops you might have stockpiled).

    Cities with more culture can be taken by a espionage, or when thats not available flanking curies and disposable musketeers. Sometime too you hit a pike heavy city and its better to go in with the musketeers first.

    You don't need to switch to Nationalism before you get military tradition - your musketeers build up at the same pace as your Curies do - just start drafting and whipping from the far side of your empire across. And I would often fuel military tradition from a golden age (either from Taj or burning a GP). Nationalism is a pretty good economic civic though - in many games I remain in it throughout. If my empire is big and based on farms then its often better than either Bureaucracy or Free speech.
     
  6. mirthadir

    mirthadir Emperor

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    I am well aware of how a curi force works; though I tend to go for a mass knights/HAs and then mass upgrade strat rather than whipping them out. I'm just not seeing the times line up all that well.

    I think this is a speed thing; on normal by the time I get a mil trad war going the AI starts mad troops and is much more likely to be approaching some nasty tech. I find I can FAR more quickly send out a force of pure musketeers (with maybe a few formation knights), get the new land online quicker - easily offsetting the costs of using disposable musketeers as cannon fodder.

    My typical MO for a mil trad war is to have had a large chariot or HA war and to mass upgrade some highly promoted units; rarely can building a FE of any variety work better than spamming cash and upgrading (either burning a GM or massing cottages).
     
  7. lafittejean

    lafittejean Chieftain

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    I prefer using Jannisaries since they often can be left to wander by themselves. So they can cut through A.I.s who mantain massive armies of archers, knights, and melee units. They do however work poorly when the enemy has plenty of artillery units to throw at them though. Usually with the pinch promotion, (through the smokeless powder event or promotion through xp), they can be almost unstoppable for quite a while. However they usually work best in threes and need to drag along artillery with them when taking cities. I found this out when I got the pinch promotion through the event. I built hordes of Jannisaries and crushed a massive midieval army. However when the time came to assault cities the losses became horrific. So Jannisaries aren't too good at attacking cities, though in the field they usually dominate. Finally if you pair them with nationalism, hordes of jannisaries are hard to beat, and they look cool.
     
  8. Ataxerxes

    Ataxerxes Deity

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    The thing about Oromos is it's only 5 XP's to Drill IV. And that stays, although you do have to shell out the money for upgrades. But it isn't just Drill IV Oromos, it's Drill IV rifleman, infantry, etc. Drill I and II by themselves aren't much. Combat I and II beats it badly. The cherry is Drill III and, especially, Drill IV.

    I admit I seem to see more Melee/Gunpowder units from the AI instead of mounted.

    Drill IV is nice on the offensive, but it's incredible if you put the Oromos in good defensive terrain and the AI conventiently slams it's *** in the door by attacking. This works out very well right after you take a city and the AI decides to kill itself trying to get it back. Drill IV isn't just about the first strikes, but the partial protection from collateral.

    Game speed might have something to do with the Musketeer's usefulness. I can see them being better on Normal and (does anybody play this?) Quick.
     
  9. The Almighty dF

    The Almighty dF Pharaoh

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    I went Janissary, but Oromo's nice too.
    Musketeer though... musketeer's pretty lame. I usually avoid playing as France because they have, to me, two of the worst UU and UB. They're still above the Celts in terms of UU & UB, but that's not saying much.
    However, as the above poster brought up, maybe they don't suck on the faster game speeds. I'm strictly a marathon player, where they're pretty much worthless.
     
  10. kwang.tx

    kwang.tx Chieftain

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    Love the polls :)

    I'm for the Jannisaries. Otto leader is philosophical (I believe), so I tend to run a caste/workshop economy. Thus I take the workshop oriented tech path that leads nicely towards gunpowder anyways.. Usually means I get gunpowder early, where Jans shine
     
  11. Jerrymander

    Jerrymander Epistemologist

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    No, Mehmed is Expansive and Organized and always has been. But he did have the special ability of crashing some people's games in Warlords.
     
  12. bestbrian

    bestbrian Just this guy, ya know?

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    Suleiman is PHI.
     
  13. ICNP

    ICNP The Third Superpower

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    Janissaries. After playing RFC with the Ottomans, I bow beneath their European slaughtering power.

    :bow:Take that Russian Pigs!:bow:
     
  14. SuperSmash5

    SuperSmash5 Warlord

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    I don't even have BTS, but the Oromo Warrior sounds intense. Since you can get Drill promotions for gunpowder units in BTS, with two upgrades you can have Drill IV which is like... 4-7 first strikes? That's huge. I'd say it's much more powerful than the 25% bonuses AND you keep promotions when you upgrade.
     
  15. Jerrymander

    Jerrymander Epistemologist

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    And it's immune to first strikes, making it better at demolishing longbows.
     
  16. Iranon

    Iranon Deity Whipping Boy

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    Oh yes. Oromos are at least 3.5 first strikes ahead of other muskets against archery units... possibly far more if either side invests in Drill promotions.
     

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