Best PHI Leader

[drewisfat]

Yep, Cataphs, vultures and dogs are all worse than musketeers. It's much better to give a small buff to a great unit, than a big buff to a worthless unit. The disconnect that makes most people think musketeers are bad is because they think it's a buff to the bad musket unit, when really it's a buff to cuirs.


ORG is a bad trait on pangaea maps; it becomes considerably better on the other scripts. Consider on pangaea that the map is small and your economy stops mattering once you hit cuirs/cannons. If you are having a great game and manage to conquer a lot early, settle a lot of cities yourself, or have the food to grow huge, ORG can launch you into the stars. But if you conquered someone early, have a super fun food start, or are able to settle 10 cities, you're going to win the game anyways.

There are a few main reasons games can be hard:
No food.
No land.
Nasty declares on you.

Org doesn't help you overcome these early challenges.
If you're struggling with not enough good cities ORG isn't going to help you tech to cuirs faster, it's going to contribute only a few gpt. Whereas FIN/IND/PHI all give you ways to build a strong economy from scratch, ORG can only make a strong economy stronger. When you're weakest, so is the trait.

They say a picture is worth a whole bunch of words, so here's a game where I'm really at the edge of the position being winnable. From a comically unfortunate capital location to a horrorwar with the Zulu this game was quite miserable. I was so depressed I didn't even scout. Of course I knew where everyone was anyway, because with only 6 cities I managed to share borders with EVERYONE

Deity/Quick/Pangeae

Spoiler :

Its 500AD and I'm on nationalism. I've got two GS and the AIs haven't got paper yet, so it looks like I'll be able to Lib MT directly. I think it's safe to say we're at the end of where my economic strength is important to the outcome. Let's take a peak of ORG's contribution.

Spoiler :

0 Courthouses built
0 Lighthouses built (1 conquered)
and Civic Maintenance:





Heck even IMP would have meant defeating the Zulu like a millennium earlier or something.

 

[Fippy]

Hmmm, Quick Deity hurts right?
But i agree, and why i rank CHA much higher than most..i never had a game where it's useless, easiest example will always be that you can get 3x promoted units rather easily later.
I also had plenty games where happiness was problematic, on different map scripts and even Pangea sometimes.
Being able to work some more tiles/specialists can indeed be "economic".

 

[Seraiel]

Thx drewisfat for posting this game, and these screens. I was already thinking about something similar, but didn't want to invest that work already, as I still hoped people could simply understand and see.

The screens clearly show, that ORG has only very little influence, as Civics don't make such a big part of the spendings of an empire.

@ drewisfat: Those forrests should have been chopped 1000y ago -.- ^^

@ Fippy: Quick Deity hurts when played on a Large map with Raging Barbs ^^ Wondered why you didn't play the last Gauntlet, as it had that settings. Only 3 persons finished that one, would have thought, you might find that interesting.

 

[drewisfat]

Chopping is much, much weaker on quick, as they failed at scaling it horribly. It takes same # of turns to chop as on normal speed. In fact you save a worker turn by just building the improvement instead of chopping and then improving.

Everything was scarce this game including workers. I actually did chop quite a few forests, but I also had to focus my workers on improvements. I planned on expanding my workforce earlier, but you see there was this 1000-year delay in my acquisition of Zulu workers. If I recall correctly, I told 8 swordsmen to attack 3 archers in a flat city. None of the archers died. It wasn't fun.

I didn't regret keeping the forests late though. It kept my capital nice and healthy, while I sold my health resources to the AIs. Also those forests have a critical role in my allstar plan of producing a cuir army with nothing else but buddhist monasteries and an iron mine

CHA is a solid always useful trait. Heck just selling two happiness resources would have netted me a lot more gold than ORG this game

 

[Ataxerxes]

Yep, Cataphs, vultures and dogs are all worse than musketeers. It's much better to give a small buff to a great unit, than a big buff to a worthless unit. The disconnect that makes most people think musketeers are bad is because they think it's a buff to the bad musket unit, when really it's a buff to cuirs.


ORG is a bad trait on pangaea maps; it becomes considerably better on the other scripts. Consider on pangaea that the map is small and your economy stops mattering once you hit cuirs/cannons. If you are having a great game and manage to conquer a lot early, settle a lot of cities yourself, or have the food to grow huge, ORG can launch you into the stars. But if you conquered someone early, have a super fun food start, or are able to settle 10 cities, you're going to win the game anyways.

I know I sound like I argue both sides of my face, but I don't consider Musketeers better than Cataphracts and Vultures. Admittedly I hate Dogs (wasted on SB super-archers). I think the Musketeer itself is a nice unit (AI doesn't handle speed well) but most of the time they only have a short shelf-life because Rifling comes up quickly. Really, for Musketeers it's the short period they are used that weakens them, not the unit itself.

Interesting point about ORG I hadn't considered. It is worse on Panagea. It also depends what Civics you like to run - if you normally run low-cost civics (such as FR) it's worth less.

Some of the discussion has been about CHA, which I like. The faster promos and extra happiness are quite nice. It's a good trait, useful in both war and peace. The only traits I consider weaker than others are PRO and AGG, although AGG is better. Maybe I don't use it properly but I don't get too much out of IMP. All the others are good civics to me.

 

[Fippy]

Same would be true for Cataps thou, Knights have no long time if you go towards Cuirs fast.
Actually in my games they often have no time at all
Getting Rifling takes some time too..or we would never use Cuirs but always Cavs.

 

[rah]

I usually have Cuirs before I research guilds.

 

[Antilogic]

I have a soft spot for Frederick, Alexander, Peter, and Pericles, but in terms of the absolute best I am between Elizabeth and Gandhi. Ended up picking Elizabeth because I can never seem to get into a game with Gandhi--for some reason he bores me.

 

[VSarius]

I actually forgot about Conquis, they definitely get Cataphs slot, shows how often I play Spain heh. As for Vultures, Swords with +25% vs. Melee at BW is pretty damn strong if used correctly they are better against every unit except other axes over the default I consider that a sizeable upgrade, Dogs are either worthless or a godsend depending on map generation, having a resourceless unit that shuts down every Barb at a tech that is necessary anyway is very, very good.

 

[drewisfat]

Vultures aren't swords though, they don't get +10% against cities, and with a sword rush the entire point is to strike early enough that they don't get metal / you choke it immediately. So +10% against cities is actually more valuable than +25% melee. They might break even with swords because they're 5 hammers cheaper iirc.

Axe rushes aren't faster than sword rushes, because with both the speed limiting factor is getting 3 cities, vs getting the tech. The main perk to coming with BW is you don't have to commit the extra beakers (and very small risk of no iron) by going IW. But this assumes you get copper immediately, which is rare.

What's worse is Gilgamesh doesn't start with mining and is neither AGG nor IMP; and those are pretty much required for making a sword rush a smart decision.

Dogs might help in weird barb games, but personally on my settings i never encounter this. Also they basically make SB's UB useless.

I don't think I've ever used dog soldiers -- I use musketeers virtually every time im France.

Muskets have the same or longer window than cuirs. Few units have a bigger window of opportunity, I don't get this argument at all.

 

[Tristan_C]

Dogs aren't much vs a city but they sure can choke. If you start on a landmass with just one or two other civs their slow death is a foregone conclusion.

 

[VSarius]

It's cost:benefit, SwordRushing in general is weak. Partially because of IWs cost, partially because it doesn't lead to economic techs. Vultures mean a significantly faster timing and being able to research something that isn't IW. If you wait till 3 cities before rushing with Axes your timing is awful, 2 cities, maybe sometimes zero if the capitol is solid. I'd much rather have to research Mining-BW instead of BW-IW obviously. Sumeria also starts Agri/Wheel, best case, you don't even need any worker techs.

Creative is pretty nice, actually helps deal with taking on new land, PRO is a throwaway, but Tier A starting techs and one good trait is more than enough. Musketeers=Hammers or Food being used to produce something which isn't Cuirassiers, usually the better option is simply building more Cuirassiers. Unless you have a very good Globe-Draft City, in which case you may as well just push with a Rifle-Cav stack, Musketeers like Impi are a MP unit, in SP, a waste.

 

[UnforcedError]

Dogs might help in weird barb games, but personally on my settings i never encounter this. Also they basically make SB's UB useless.

They have their niche uses like choking a civ with an early melee UU (Sumeria, Rome etc.) Admittedly, this is not something you will need that often.
Agree on the assessment on vultures and musketeers.

 

[Fippy]

Musketeers like Impi are a MP unit, in SP, a waste.

Well i have slightly different experience.
If you put CG2 guys into a captured city, the better option was not building another Cuir instead. Musket will defend better, and in case it's on hills..much better.

Also if you see roaming Pikes (it's not that rare), why not take them out with your Muskets. Even against Jumbos you get slightly better risk vs. hammers odds.

Now Impis..certainly not wasteful in some situations.
They are like better (defensive bonuses, combat 1) chariots vs. barbs, and you might need less Impis than you would need Axes due to their mobility, if your cities are a bit stretched out.

For choking, they are deadly for AIs if they connect horses instead of metal first..
and again, they get there quick.
They even have use for HA rushes, no really Impis are good.

 

[Iranon]

Problem in the OP: "PHI leader" != "-heavy leader", because of the way GPP scale.

Elizabeth is the strongest leader with PHI in my opinion, but the combination of FIN and the Stock Exchange encourage me to go light on Great People and use PHI in a supporting role.

As for ORG... I like it more than most, but Frederick is handicapped by being German. Useless civilisation.

 

[lindsay40k]

Isn't the main benefit of PHI one or more of the following:
- earlier Math bulb for cats
- earlier multi-Gold/Silver/Gems Academy for cats/elepults/HAs
- earlier settled GS for HAs
- early espionage economy with TGW
- more GM cash injections
- faster GS bulbing to Lib
- more reliable corporate economy
- easily putting a shrine in a captured holy city
- bulbing theology after an early GS ploy
- Oracle MC then GE Machinery bulb
- farming GAs for culture win
All of these have particular synergies. Sitting Bull loves Crossbows. Alexander and Lincoln are strong candidates for early Catapult wars, with their easy access to lv2 promos. Frederick can keep a corporate economy afloat and if you're going for Space there's nothing wrong with a late GE farm. Liz loves academy bureaucap, and she shares a knack for Culture games with Gandhi. Pericles is, well, Pericles, and handy at grabbing marginal Elephants with his borders without founding cities in the middle of a jungle, and Suleiman can quickly spread towards distant Ellies - and farm GGs from their exploits. And Peter gets the whip and specialists online quicker in any given play with his cheap Granaries, which perhaps gives him a marginal edge over the rest (except Gandhi) in supercharging a SE with Pyramids.

 

[Drakarska]

That's been pretty much my theory. If it's wrong, I'd really like to see why.

 

[Fippy]

PHI is not limited in possibilities..there are just too many good things you can do with great people.
I would say also getting cheap Unis and so easier Ox if games go longer, makes Phi slightly overpowered compared to most other traits.

 

[qazq2]

I said Peter, but it was close between Pericles and Gandhi, they may actually be better but Peter fits my strategy better.

 

[SewerStarFish]

I have been on this site for almost 11 years, and just today discovered I can click the number on the poll and see who voted what.

I wonder what stuff I missed in Civ IV...and III...and II.