Best second follower belief for Cultural VC?

[Cromagnus]

Let's assume you already have Cathedrals, and you're extending your religion.

Unless you're going OCC, I'm wondering if Pagodas aren't better than Religious Art.

Religious Art:
Sistine Chapel + Hermitage + Reformation: + 103%
In this case, the +8 turns into +16.
Net gain: +16 culture

Pagodas:
With Sistine Chapel and Reformation and 4 pagodas: +53%
+8 turns into +12

You lose 4 culture per turn but gain +6 faith and +6 happiness. This assumes you build a wonder in all four cities. National Wonders count, so this is easy. Of course, you're losing some tiny amount of culture from the 3 wonders you didn't put in the capital. (which were presumably +1 culture each) Instead of getting the 103% bonus, they get the lower 53% bonus, so you lose 1.5 culture per turn.

Total difference, 5.5 culture per turn. That 6 faith and 6 happiness might just be worth it though. Happiness is key towards going tall. You need to go tall for artist slots, etc.

Or is this a moot point? Is there a better extender follower belief for cultural victories?

Feed The World giving +2 food per city might be more important... that's a specialist slot. (2 with freedom)

Thoughts?

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

the +6 happiness also translates into 50% culture modifier from Mandate of Heaven, assuming the +6 is directly added to the surplus. and it's quite situational but Monasteries can be better if you have a 4+ wine/incense available in your cities.

 

[slapshot2119]

The more cities you have, the more pagodas are favored:
3 or less cities: clear advantage religious arts
4 cities: situational, but I tend to lean towards pagodas
5 or more cities: clear advantage pagodas.

Also, can we confirm your statement that national wonders count as the 1 wonder/city regarding the 33% reformation bonus? I'm almost positive that reformation defines this as being "world" wonders only, but if it does apply to national wonders, this could completely alter my strategy (no longer need to burn a Gengineer or 2 to get a World wonder in the last city or two...)

 

[Browd]

Pagodas:
With Sistine Chapel and Reformation and 4 pagodas: +53%
+8 turns into +12

Presumably you would build Hermitage in one of those 4 cities, so the pagoda in that city would generate one additional culture, for a total of +13.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

The more cities you have, the more pagodas are favored:
3 or less cities: clear advantage religious arts
4 cities: situational, but I tend to lean towards pagodas
5 or more cities: clear advantage pagodas.

Also, can we confirm your statement that national wonders count as the 1 wonder/city regarding the 33% reformation bonus? I'm almost positive that reformation defines this as being "world" wonders only, but if it does apply to national wonders, this could completely alter my strategy (no longer need to burn a Gengineer or 2 to get a World wonder in the last city or two...)

i only know that national wonders dont count for the Freedom bonus per wonder.

 

[Smirk]

Not sure about your math, it's Sistine (+25), Hermitage (+50), Reformation (+33) (=108). Also don't forget Alhambra (+20). All told the bonus +8 culture will become ~+18. Which is more than the what you'd get from a typical city layout of (3-4) with pagodas. I never go 5, but then I never play larger than standard.
Also, thats ignoring the opportunity cost of the faith spent on building pagodas. The first prophet (after forming or upgrading religion) is a no-brainer, it has to be settled for the +3 culture, plus the faith and gold benefit. As the cost goes up the choice becomes murky wether to get another prophet or spread religion. I tend to lean towards prophets settled in my capital benefiting from the multiplier effect.

Actually I overlooked your mention of Cathedrals. My *first* choice is Religious Art and I generally lean towards the temple +2 culture on upgrade as they are already built and can be built with gold if needed. (i.e. i go with neither of the building choices) The opportunity cost of buying those buildings with faith and don't forget the faith spent for missionary to spread religion seem better preserved to just generating prophets and settling them. Then once prophet cost is shot thru the roof, buying artists (for golden ages).

As with vanilla artists are still the king when it comes to culture games, however unlike vanilla their benefit seems more suited to sparking golden ages than settling. They are still the king of culture generation but from their +20% bonus to your entire civ culture.

My goal here would be optimal time to win, ala Hall of Fame submission sort of playing. Your milage may vary.


One of the overriding principles with respect to a fast culture victory is that culture is extremely limited, you have to reach a balance with cities and generation to get the 30 policies in a timely manner. Additionally, you can't hope to catch up later as culture just doesn't scale at all well. And there are times during the game based on whats available in the age and money available where you will hit slow points where there isn't anything much you can do to speed up culture generation. The absolute minimum I've found is wishfully 5 turn policies (therefore the minimum fast game = 145 turns). After about 6 policies into a game if you are staring at a 20 turns until next policy, that can never be made up for. At best towards the end you may be churning 4 turn policies or here and there a 3 turn. But you won't do that for 15 policies.

 

[Cromagnus]

Not sure about your math, it's Sistine (+25), Hermitage (+50), Reformation (+33) (=108). Also don't forget Alhambra (+20).

I'm assuming that I won't get Alhambra because I'm playing on Deity and I don't rush to it because of other priorities. I burn a GE to ensure I get Sistine Chapel if necessary, but I don't expect to get much else. It's debatable whether even trying for the Oracle is a good idea, because it usually means delaying other builds you need.

 

[Cromagnus]

Sorry, you're right, it is only World Wonders. Thanks for saving me a wasted game lol

Edit: So, on that note, do you think it's worth popping great engineers to get wonders in those other cities? I'd personally prefer to have the culture from those wonders be boosted by the Hermitage.

Also, yes, my math was wrong, but 108% vs 103%, still a fraction of a point. I think Hammer Rabbi's point about the bonus happiness turning into extra culture is excellent though. For 4 cities, it does seem like pagodas is better. I thought about just going with 3, but on Deity, I felt like I needed the extra production, and also, in this particular game, I had an opportunity to lock down a mountain pass. However, I can definitely see how the extra culture cost will hurt in the long run...

Regarding +2 culture from temples vs Cathedrals. I can't imagine not going with Cathedrals first. Getting that extra artist slot (early) is pretty darn significant. Also, since I'm playing with Ethiopia, I can get away with blowing off temples and shrines at first to focus on growth. I don't need the faith to lock down a religion when I'm getting 8/turn from Steles, even on Deity. Which is why I'm tempted to go with Feed the World, so that I can still be growth-focused while building them. I don't know. Still a work in a progress. I'm pretty sure that maintenance-free +3/+2/+1 w/ artist slot from Cathedrals beats +2faith/+2culture with 2g/turn maintenance. The artist slot means it's really +6 culture, almost like having a Terracotta Army in each city! Especially since you can get all four cathedrals for 200 faith, which is super cheap. This just seems more important than Religious Arts. The thing I'm not sure of is whether the bonus happiness from Pagodas is better than the growth from Feed the World. I think it is though. Happiness is so flexible in a Cultural game, because it's either bonus culture or it allows faster growth. That's just a win/win.

 

[tommynt]

dont think any1 clever takes Religious Art in a non occ game - there are obviously better choises.

Doing good in cult games is not about peaking up cult in turn 300 to the max but to get to the important techs and espacially indu era fast.

cathedral looks much more like a "mandatory" pick for fast cult games.

 

[Moriarte]

I almost always take Divine Inspiration as 2nd, if going cultural. 2 extra Artists are pretty useful.

 

[Cromagnus]

I almost always take Divine Inspiration as 2nd, if going cultural. 2 extra Artists are pretty useful.

I assume you're saying that the extra faith from all the wonders in your capital eventually results in 2 extra faith-generated great artists? But, even assuming you get lots of wonders (on Deity, not a safe assumption), that momentum builds up slowly, so you're getting those extra GAs in the mid-to-late game. I'm assuming you're going with Cathedrals first...

Let me think about the math. 2 faith/wonder, including national wonders... Assuming you get every national wonder except the NIA, that's 9. (If the Palace counts... does it?)

Then add in Oracle, SC, PT and eventually CR. Maybe CI and Pisa if you're lucky. That's 16 or 32/turn. Of course you won't have any of them until after turn 100. So, being generous, that's 3200 extra faith, which would give you one, maaaybe two extra GA. Whereas, 4 Pagodas (giving full bonuses earlier) will probably end up being 1200 base culture and 1200 faith, not counting the happiness benefit. I can see how if you didn't need happiness, Divine Inspiration might be better. But, since I focus on growth above all else to maximize slots, Pagodas are more desirable to me.

I'll have to play around with that one at some point though. It seems like Divine Inspiration is better suited to lower difficulty levels, where you can guarantee HG/GL, etc.

 

[Cromagnus]

the +6 happiness also translates into 50% culture modifier from Mandate of Heaven, assuming the +6 is directly added to the surplus. and it's quite situational but Monasteries can be better if you have a 4+ wine/incense available in your cities.

I got beaten to Monasteries in this game, or I would have been sorely tempted. Three of my cities have incense.

My capital had 5 total, 3 incense in the first 2 tiers, 1 more in tier 3, and 1 more in tier 4, which means I'll eventually get it. My second city had 3 incense, and my third city had 1.

I was beaten to Desert Folklore too, but at least I got Goddess of Festivals. That's eventually going to be 9culture/faith per turn, but only 1/3 of those tiles are food-generating. :-(

I'm going all out for Petra right now, but I have a bad feeling whoever took Desert Folklore is going to beat me to it.

I also have a bad feeling it's Harun, and that he's going all wonders. I'm at the faaaar east end of the Pangaea, which is great for defense, but the borders closed up before I could scout all the way to the other side. Sigh.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

having to work the tiles for the bonus is tedious. Early game i dont like working wine/incense so i can work better food tiles but by the time I get a Monastery I usually have good enough pop to justify it. usually i end up switching back and forth with the pantheon to get some gold from the tiles if i trade my gpt away.

 

[RedRover57]

Personally I would never take another faith building after Cathedrals because I would use the faith to save for Great Artists/Great Prophets instead. In a current culture game my faith purchases were as follows (3 city game with Byzantium):

Prophet (establish religion) - Missionary - Prophet (enhance religion) - Missionary - Missionary - Inquisitor (to protect my holy city) - Cathedral - Cathedral - Cathedral - Prophet (holy site) - Prophet (start converting continent 2) - Great Artists

Initial missionary allowed me to convert my second largest city plus nearby CS quickly. With Itinerant Preachers plus additional missionaries I was able to dominate my continent very fast - the other 2 religions on my continent could not compete. With Peace Loving as a founder belief, I was gaining 50 excess happiness from that belief alone by t200. In this game I purchased a couple of cheap Great Prophets after the Cathedrals since I had Messiah as my bonus belief for Byzantium. Subsequently all remaining faith was used for Great Artists.

For my second follower belief I took Choral Music (+2 culture per temple), which probably wasn't as good a choice as Religious Arts since I only ended up with 3 cities. But using the majority of my faith to spread my religion early on was a much better plan than using it to build a few pagodas, as the 50 happiness translated to 25 culture (not to mention faster Golden Ages with over 90 total excess happiness on t200). Similarly, late faith was better spent on Great Artists to extend the late Golden Ages.

Edit: I should mention that World Church was already gone to the Mayans who established their religion first. That would have been even better than Peace Loving in this situation of course. The funny part is that the Mayans were on my continent and I totally dominated them with my religion such that they only had their own religion in their capital. Even though they established first, they took a long time to enhance and by that time my religion was dominating.

 

[Moriarte]

I assume you're saying that the extra faith from all the wonders in your capital eventually results in 2 extra faith-generated great artists? But, even assuming you get lots of wonders (on Deity, not a safe assumption), that momentum builds up slowly, so you're getting those extra GAs in the mid-to-late game. I'm assuming you're going with Cathedrals first...

Let me think about the math. 2 faith/wonder, including national wonders... Assuming you get every national wonder except the NIA, that's 9. (If the Palace counts... does it?)

Then add in Oracle, SC, PT and eventually CR. Maybe CI and Pisa if you're lucky. That's 16 or 32/turn. Of course you won't have any of them until after turn 100. So, being generous, that's 3200 extra faith, which would give you one, maaaybe two extra GA. Whereas, 4 Pagodas (giving full bonuses earlier) will probably end up being 1200 base culture and 1200 faith, not counting the happiness benefit. I can see how if you didn't need happiness, Divine Inspiration might be better. But, since I focus on growth above all else to maximize slots, Pagodas are more desirable to me.

I'll have to play around with that one at some point though. It seems like Divine Inspiration is better suited to lower difficulty levels, where you can guarantee HG/GL, etc.

Yes, that's right. I mean up until immortal, where you can get around 10 wonders by the end of the game. Also, you need to take into account extra culture from these artists, settled or bulbed, which seems like a good substitue for pagodas or world religion to me.

Deity is a completely different story though, where you need strong military to snipe Apollo aspirants and a win will most likely come after turn 300, since you need strong science and military with a moderate focus on culture.

 

[Cromagnus]

Key words: "the other 2 religions on my continent were established later and could not compete"

This never happens to me on Deity. In my current game, the Celts founded a religion on turn 36 or so. I got the 3rd religion. They got Itinerant Preachers and converted everything but my capital before I could even get a missionary out. I've now pushed them back out of my empire, but still. Even if you go full bore faith, there's no way to guarantee the best beliefs on Deity.

I wish I could specify civs *not* to include. I'd love to exclude the Celts, because on Deity they're kinda broken. The AI starts with 2 cities so the Celts immediately generate huge faith/turn. The only plus side is that they never steal a pantheon I want, since the forest start usually means no desert. But they often do nab the religious beliefs I want. I suppose I could just re-roll until none of my immediate neighbors go for religions early, but that feels cheaty.

Typically, on Deity, it's been a struggle for me to keep other religions out of my own borders, let alone spread my own. My last (failed) game, I managed to convert Denmark (who did not get a religion) and 4 CS, and hold them for almost the entire game. With Papal Primacy, I was perma-allied with those 4 CS until the late game when AI coups got *ridiculous*. Seriously, how many spies do they get??

Anyway, my capital finally got taken by Mongolia on turn 310 while I was building the Utopia Project. (Mongolia ate Arabia right before Arabia completed the spaceship, which is the only reason I didn't lose on turn 280)

Now, for the second game in a row, I'm right next to the Celts. And Mongolia!

Sigh.

 

[Cromagnus]

Yes, that's right. I mean up until immortal, where you can get around 10 wonders by the end of the game. Also, you need to take into account extra culture from these artists, settled or bulbed, which seems like a good substitue for pagodas or world religion to me.

Deity is a completely different story though, where you need strong military to snipe Apollo aspirants and a win will most likely come after turn 300, since you need strong science and military with a moderate focus on culture.

I've been debating that. I think turn 260 cultural victories are achievable on Deity, which is early enough to beat a space race. Hoping you're in a position (geographically and militarily) to interfere with a Science Victory long enough to win on turn 300+ seems like a losing bet, unless you get lucky.

I think it's better to rely on diplomacy and efficient defense and just go all-out culture... possibly with a one or two early city captures if you can pull it off. I'm goading the Celts into attacking me in the hopes they over-extend themselves, and hoping that Japan does the work for me attacking their capital so I can snipe it. ;-)

 

[slapshot2119]

Personally I would never take another faith building after Cathedrals because I would use the faith to save for Great Artists/Great Prophets instead.

but all religious buildings generate culture, happiness, and FAITH. So a second religious building will provide additional faith, making it easier to purchase the Great Artists more frequently, and making the 4K and 6.5K level Great Artists more accessible. All the while, they are providing additional culture, that which wins the game for you, and the additional culture provided by the second religious building gets multiplied by the golden age. It adds to the base and makes it easier to increase the frequency of the multiplier. As far as maintaining a golden age, or even forever golden status early, specialist-generated great artists are cheaper earlier, and I usually depend on them until all my cities have both religious buildings, but sometimes will interject the initial 1K level faith-generated Great Artist before all the buildings are completed.

In a current culture game my faith purchases were as follows (3 city game with Byzantium):

Prophet (establish religion) - Missionary - Prophet (enhance religion) - Missionary - Missionary - Inquisitor (to protect my holy city) - Cathedral - Cathedral - Cathedral - Prophet (holy site) - Prophet (start converting continent 2) - Great Artists

the fourth, fifth, and sixth step (missionary/missionary/inquisitor) seems inefficient to me. If you were to build the cathedrals first, your faith per turn would be higher earlier, making it easier to build the missionaries. As a game-winning side bonus, you'd have much higher culture earlier. Yes, you obviously need the religion in the city before you're allowed to build a cathedral there, but the initial great prophet that founds a religion provides one cathedral site and (assuming the missionary in step 2 is used to spread to your second and third city) you could have your 2nd, 4th, and 5th step be cathedrals instead of 7th, 8th, and 9th step as you've outlined. I don't have a set order that i follow, but it's essentially build a religious building anywhere it can be built, and if there are no cities that can build one, make a missionary which creates 1-3 cities that can build one.

 

[Moriarte]

I think turn 260 cultural victories are achievable on Deity, which is early enough to beat a space race.

Doable. But t. 260 requires a brilliant map and a whole lotta luck. Pressing for science and military, on the other hand, is more consistent, since you are actually in control. Yet it doesn't feel like a cultural game, when you follow this path. More like a warmonger deciding to go cultural at the dawn of his life.

 

[Cromagnus]

Doable. But t. 260 requires a brilliant map and a whole lotta luck. Pressing for science and military, on the other hand, is more consistent, since you are actually in control. Yet it doesn't feel like a cultural game, when you follow this path. More like a warmonger deciding to go cultural at the dawn of his life.

This is mostly how I've been playing lately. I've been using Tabarnak's 4-city start, goading people into DoWing me (and building strong friendships with their enemies in the process), then using that early advantage to achieve whatever victory I want.

It does seem weird that the best strategy for a science or diplomatic victory seems to be early aggression. Unless you're the Aztecs, in which case it makes perfect sense. ;-)

I'm having a little bit more trouble translating that approach into a cultural victory on Deity so far though. But I'm making progress.