Best Time to Hit Tokugawa?

In my current game, I find myself stuck next to Tokugawa.

I don't want to wait until he has Macemen, but right now his Archers look pretty formidable.

What's the best era to take him out?

 

I've had best success when he's nearby taking him out post-Construction, with cats/phants. Maces not so good, because you'll be going up against his UU. Otherwise, beat him to rifles and take him with rifles (although rifles works with any civ).

 

It's never easy relative to other leaders because he spams units and they come with extra promotions. The ways to minimize the damage:

1. ASAP hit before he can hook up strategic resources. Below monarch, even a warrior rush can work. Otherwise fasta fasta chariots or axes. I don't recommend doing this unless you're desperate and the only way out is through him (except the warrior rush, that should be fine).
2. Tech lead/advantageous position: Immortals vs archers, elephants/cats vs archers, maces vs archers, or rifles, cannons, or cavalry vs longbows.
3. Later in the game you get things like nukes and air power, and big stacks mean the real difference in land wars is collateral initiative, so he's not as daunting since he's usually behind anyway if you lasted that long.

 

I've taken him out with cats before. If his cities are on the flat, you will be OK. Pilage his iron and copper. If you have a counter, leave him horses so you wont have to face as many pro archers. Maybe use 2 wars to take him out in pieces or leave him as a war vassal for you if you get feudalism.

 

I recently tried it with axes. I can vouch that you need to do this fast and bring lots of axe, 16 or so. I did have a little help when the civ behind him built the GW. Otherwise I was pretty much gassed after the 2nd city but did manage to get his third and last one. (Emperor) It wasn't pretty.

 

I try to NEVER start crap with Tokuwaga. Build a crap city, gift it to him, and then wait until he gets pissy at another civ.

Then just stab him in the back, and take his land. Although often, this doesn't go to plan.

 

My last game I actively worked from the start to get Tokugawa to sign up for a Permanent Alliance. It took a lot of giving away and being nice, but it finally worked. I think he is the hardest of any civ to get an alliance with.

After that, I just did the tech research and let him do all the war mongering

 

Isn't a permanent alliance basically, "We are now one combined civilization" ? Doesn't that sort of... Make the game wonky?

 

He's a right bolshy bastard, I try to beat him before Feudalism with cats and elephants, or any of the good early UUs. The gift city works and is sometimes the best way to deal with him (at least at immortal, not sure about diety). Still, being friends with oscar the grouch gets you hated by everybody else on Sesame Street.

 

Catapults, Catapults and more Catapults.

Don't forget the catapults.

 

Last week I was playing, on prince I think , and using mongols (kubli) I had JC on the other side of Toku and he asked me to help him with his war vs Toku. I declined and continued building up my military with the thought of going for Asoka or Joao (small board only 5 of us on it) The second time JC asked for help I went for it figuring I would ally myself with a strong neighbor and Toku would be unable to defend 2 fronts. I brought a stack of like 8 keshiks and 4 cats with more on the way for support and took Tokus 1st city. I had planned on joining up my smaller stack of like 4 keshiks and 4 cats with the larger one but didn't need to. I split them and took all 5 of his cities in like 20 turns (JC later took them back) Granted Toku had to defend 2 fronts but I was shocked how quickly he went down. I would say if his borders pop and goes over 20% wait for cats.
edit:i was playing quick btw hence then numbers look very small for the stacks. I like to outnumber him 3:1 if I don't have seige units.

 

I've found cho-kos are fairly effective against Toku as well. Since they come with machinery you can often get them well before Toku can get his Samurai and just before he gets feudalism LBs, and they shred any melee units up until then. Bring a few extra to suicide after the catapults(for great collateral) and chew up the leftover wounded with CR swords.

Otherwise, Toku is a tough cookie before you can bring cannons to the party.

 

If there are other options, waiting on Toko is normally a good bet. He's among the worst techers in the game so getting a tech advantage (engineering, steel, flight, rifling, AL, or industrialism) is easy and he is not all that hard to destroy. The bigger problem is killing him in a cost effective manner so as to not let other civs run away with the game while you take him down.

If we are going to be constrained to even tech, then the following represent times when Toko's trait are weakest on defense:
1. HBR. HAs can shrug off first strikes which make the can opener promblem so very annoying, also the rapid movement limits the number of quick annoying archers he can whip in.
2. Construction, mainly for jumbos.
3. Mil trad. Argueably the biggest advantage against toko. Naturally immune to FS and the main defenders are still getting only the pro or def bonus - not both.
4. Flight, Toko has nothing to help with air wars and you can still (maybe) hit before he gets shale online.
5. Nukes. Promos become irrelevant.

The biggest advantage Toko has is against axes (early shock, easy) , swords (the same), and maces (his UU is a pain). Next up is rifling and then AL where units get both bonuses.