Best UU?

[Archbob]

Best overall UU in the game. Lets say a real random game with these conditions:

- Standard map size
- Random Map type
- Average sea-level and temperate climate
- You have to start on the start you are given, you cannot re-roll and wait until you get an "Uber start".

which do you think is the best UU overall on such settings? I would like your opinion of the top 5 in the game to make up a "tier 1" for UU's. Mine are:

1. Fast Worker
2. Quencha
3. Immortal
4. Paetorian
5. Skirmisher

 

[yatta77]

Not a master, just an average Emperor/immortal level player picks:
1. Fast Worker, because they last the whole game, and you can't do it without workers.
2. Keshik, because they are cool, powerful, and have a quite long time-spam (turn wise).
...after that, no preferences, the UU doesn't really change the way I face a specific game.
Some early ones as Praetorians or War Chariots for examples are cool to have in a specific context instead of the regular unit, but that's it IMO. They hardly will win a bad played game, IMO.
Just my silly 2 cents.

Cheers!
- yatta

post #981

 

[mtr12]

Another Emperor/Immortal player here.

It really depends on what you're looking for, if you're playing against humans or AI, etc etc. For example, Quecha own AI, but are useless against humans who will just build one Shock Axe and you're screwed ).

I'm assuming you're playing Singleplayer vs. AI on Normal Speed. This is an important assumption, since it means that you need to account for what happens after your war. Not much point in a brilliant rush if you go into Strike and become a sitting duck for Genghis or get horribly outteched by Mansa.


1) Fast Workers: make it so you don't need earlygame worker micro. This is huge.
2) Conquistador: if you're Isabella, you build your entire game around getting to MiliTrad first. Conquistadors completely destroy any medieval foe without elephants.

Other than that, Praets, Keshiks, etc are great if you can avoid going into Strike somehow. Like, if you start with Gold/Silver/Gems/2xFurs or something.

 

[Lewarks]

Well, since there is no map/land to choose, I'd choose the only one which is always good : the fast worker.

It really depends on what you're looking for, if you're playing against humans or AI, etc etc. For example, Quecha own AI, but are useless against humans who will just build one Shock Axe and you're screwed ).

Yes and no.
Quechua are still good for barb defense. Also, multiplayer is often at low difficulty level, therefore Hereditary Rule + mass Quechua (since you can build them even with copper) is nice. Finally, Quechua starts with Combat I, which can lead to funny 3 promotions upgrade without beeing Agressive.

 

[Archbob]

I generally war late although if I roll Rome, Persia, that will change.

Since I prefer warring in industrial/modern instead of ancient, the Navy Seal is actually more useful to me in my style of play than the earlier UU's. Of course, I can play differently if I roll someone like Rome/Persia.

Quencha are always useful for barb defense.

 

[coanda]

A small word of advice: War Chariots are almost strictly better than Immortals. Against archers out in the open with no defensive bonuses immortals are better, but in almost any reasonable situation the WCs will do better (it has to do with how offensive/defensive bonuses are calculated, which is not the obvious method).

As for top-tier...
Fast Worker has to be in there.
If you have Iron, Cho-ko-nu and Praetorian are superb. My only beef with them is that you generally don't know whether you have iron until after you have to decide to try to rush with them. If you know you'll have iron (e.g., as Rome in Earth18) they're absurd.
I hear that Cataphracts are considered exceptionally good in MP; in SP I've found them strong but still a pain in the neck to get at a reasonable time.
Conquistadors are the go-to unit for a Renaissance breakout with a small tech lead. +50% vs. melee lets them deal with cuirassiers' biggest pre-gunpowder threat, pikes.
Keshiks and War Chariots are the strongest early rush units in the game.
On certain map scripts the Carrack is ridiculously overpowered; on most map scripts it's one of the weakest UUs.
And, of course, the Quecha. The unit of choice for Deity HoF games. Mediocre in multiplayer, deadly in single-player.

My personal top-5 would be...
1. Fast Worker
2. Quecha
3. War Chariot
4. Conquistador
5. Keshik

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

Fast worker, War Chariot.

 

[ahcos]

Once again? ... Okay.

First of all, alot of that depends on the difficulty. Quechas are great on pretty much every difficulty where you'll see barbtrouble and the AI starts with Archers. Skirmishers are close to useless on every difficulty below Immortal, maybe even on everything below Deity, but on Deity itself they're really good sometimes - even better @ MP. Holkans for example are pretty much a non-issue for everything below Immortal, but they're terrific on wide-open maps where you do NOT have strategic resources to defend yourself and barbs will enter your territory @ turn 40 on Deity.
You can win the game with Vultures, Praets, Immortals or Warchariots alone on every difficulty up to Immortal, but on Deity they're just a better version of their original unittype most of the time - doesn't make them bad, but they lose alot of their value.
Samurais, generally considered to be a rather weak UU (because they're medieval), will just tear apart everything in their way up to Emperor; they're a very good unit on those difficulties, and a fun UU on top.
As AbsoluteZero has shown in one of his videos, Numidian Cavalery is a pretty good / great UU on Deity, but it's worse compared to standard HAs on pretty much every other difficulty.

And then there are UUs who are good on every difficulty. Namely Keshiks and Fast Workers. And only one of those UUs is resourceless and useful on every setting... Fast worker is the best UU if you take all settings/difficulties/gamespeeds into account, not the slightest doubt.

So, the difficulty matters alot here. But so do the settings - Deity/Fractal with isolation you'll love Holkans, trust me on that...

I'm not even sure about how i'd rank the UUs on, say, Deity/Pangea. Sure, #1 is the fast worker, but #2, #3 etc. aren't that clear... but maybe like that:

1. Fast worker/Quecha
2. Keshik/Numidian Cavalery/Conquistador
3. War Chariot/Skirmisher
4. Immortal/Praetorian/Bowman
5. Holkan/Dog Soldier

Ye ye, gotta admit that those NCs are really somewhat awesome in this case... Skirms+Bowman because they will make you survive early battles.
WCs+Immortals because although you most likely won't rush someone with them, they're great vs. Barbs and to take barb cities, which is worth alot when you're desperate for more cities.
Quechas for the well-known fact that they're imbalanced.
Keshiks because they melt faces and are the most sexy UU in the game. Conquistadors because they're strong as already pointed out several times.
And Holkans/Dog Soldiers because they're resourceless. Priceless if barbs are about to jump on your throat.
Fast workers because they're the best UU in the game, although Quechas are tied on this setting thanks to choking abuse.

 

[Mylene]

Old topic for sure ~~
I never seem to agree with Fast Workers as undisputed 1. along with Quechs.
While they are always very nice to have, they won't stop early DoWs. Or Barbs.
Or help you break out with 4 boxed in cities when our only hope is power, like Conquis.
There are in fact loads of situations where i'd rather have something else from your list, Ahcos

 

[ahcos]

There are in fact loads of situations where i'd rather have something else from your list, Ahcos

There always are. First of all, this is MY oppinion and as every oppinion, it might be wrong. That said, on average you'll almost every time have something useful to do with fast workers. From my point of view it's hard to argue against a UU that always has a value in your game. After all they might not provide the raw fighting power of Conqs, but they might help you with your earlygame so you get a certain tech or cityside earlier. Or they might help with an early rush.

But most important for me is that they're resourceless, just like Quechas. I've had games were no horses were available, rendering Conqs useless no matter how great they would have been. But i've never had a game where entering a forest and chopping it on the same turn was bad.

After all that list is somewhat based on Deity/Pangea... Quechas tend to be very good on this particular script. On other scripts i probably wouldn't rank them that high (e.g. fractal, continents, big&small), but on Pangea they very often equal a second capital-quality city and at least another decent town(unless you get screwed big time by the game, that is).

On other mapscripts i'd prefer for example Keshiks (they're so freakin' great on forested/jungle/hill maps), but there's no script where fast workers seem to be bad. Well, maybe with the exception of an OCC where your BFC consists of only seatiles or so ...

 

[Bei1052]

The question should be "Best UU of each era", otherwise early UU's will almost always get first mention.

 

[Mylene]

You are fun for discussing, only cos of that i bothered answering in an old topic like this one ~~
Very valid points ofc, it's just..i always think "okay...faster workers can move onto forests and chop without waiting 1 turn, maybe their biggest advantage, and save some worker turns here and there.

But honestly, a few more workers would have the same effect.
Can i really put them ahead of units being capable of winning a war, where i might lose without.
For me, i have to say no way ~~

 

[mtr12]

But faster workers mean faster chops and improvements. Which mean faster developing cities. Which can mean anything from more troops to that pivotal wonder. It creates a snowball effect.

 

[Mylene]

But they are an early/mid game unit (only), one argument is "they never obselete".
Not true, you will have a solid road network at some point, along with most forests chopped.
Along with more workers, or the ability to produce them very fast.
Then their value drops, a lot
It's usually possible to make up for only D) regular workers. But not to defeat a Pike at winning odds with a regular Curi, just cos you guys love the Conquis lately ~~

 

[georgel123]

1. Fast Worker
2. Quecha
3. War Chariot
4. Cataphract

I try not to mention the praetorian, since there are some who absolutely love the fact that they are "overpowered", and some who argue that they are overrated.

 

[ahcos]

No doubt: if you have a game where you actually can rush with Conqs they are pure gold, hands down. Somehow i feel like there couldn't be anything i could say that would change the fact that it's somewhat dependant on personal taste and the way one values certain aspects in the game. It's certainly hard to argue against the UU that is a great improvement over it's standard unit, which is maybe the most used unit for breakouts on Deity level nowadays. I'd still claim that the fast worker is viable in all of your games, but ofc that's somewhat tuned down by the fact that you actually have a very good chance to win the game when you make it to Conqs (as they largely boost your odds).

Btw, wasn't aware that it's an old topic, but then again this topic never gets old... somehow, even though the game's not being developed/patched anymore, the metagame still evolves, slow but steady.

 

[elohssa]

I think game speed is very important also. On marathon every unit has an extended time of use - apart from fast worker as they never obsolete on any gamespeed, so on marathon they are weaker in comparison to other units. On marathon units like Praets and war chariots can last a VERY long time and thus for a marathon player like me nothing beats praetorians. Iron may only be available 2/3rds of the time and there aren't always rush targets, but when there are the effeciency of praets is fantastic. By the time the enemy gets xbows (which on marathon takes a while) the praets usually have CRIII so they can beat even xbows efficiently.

 

[Iranon]

1-2 Quechua (worryingly close neighbour becomes a free breakfast. 101 little tricks).
1-2 Skirmisher (guaranteed, fantastic choker, excellent defender, cost-efficient and uncounterable general purpose unit)
3-4 War Chariot (capable of explosive rushes, deals well with counters for a 2-move unit)
3-4 Praetorian (powerful, no hard counters for a while, long shelf life as a discount Maceman).
5 Oromo (beeline-worthy, great at complementing cannons, excellent upgrade fodder.)

 

[Dirk1302]

Vultures are terrific if the circumstances are right, copper + many barb cities settled in your neighborhood.

 

[vranasm]

@My

very interesting you downplay the fast worker here...given that you like to build minimum number of workers anyway ;-).