[GS] Best wonders for each victory type

[seancolorado]

What are the best wonders for each victory type, as in ones I can realistically beeline the tech toward and hope for the best, even if it is a 50/50 on losing out?

I initially made this thread specifically for the Culture victory in mind, but thought we should also compile a list of the essential few wonders for Science, Religion, Diplomacy, Domination.

(Side note: I would probably exclude Ancient wonders from any suggestions. Have never managed to get one of those, but if someone knows a strategy for this, I am all ears - I need help in the wonder game is all).

 

[Archon_Wing]

I made a spreadsheet lately on this:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OHwMDzqUwb8tr1tRFCtihfLX1eCXuP9pmTaz4w23Y60/edit?usp=sharing

Not everyone will agree; just my opinion. Also this does not take in account certain exploits. Building wonders for Domination/Diplomation wins seems academical since you'll probably conquering the wonders instead.

While Ruhr Valley, Great Zimbabwe, and Chichen Itza have their use, I decided to not recommend them at all since there's a good chance people (including myself) will screw up and actually set themselves behind. (eg, if you build Ruhr Valley in a 100 production city, you might think you're doing something but you're really not.). And Great Zimbabwe is the only wonder that can literally cost you the game, plus the strategy that revolves around it is not that great anyways. In general, while I feel they may fall into a well planned game, I also feel you could just skip these wonders every game so the end result is neutral.

 

[tetley]

Interesting spreadsheet. A lot of the wonders are situational based on the terrain or other things--not just victory type. Great Bath, for instance, is very good for religious, but you need a nice floodplain on Disaster Level 4. And because it's situational, you can build it even though it's an Ancient wonder--if the terrain is favorable.

Not sure why Ruhr Valley is not-so-good in a 100-hammer city. Surely a city like that would get a Spaceport and be your primary project-building city. Or throw up an Aerodrome and get some good planes for all your cities. Unless maybe that city has absolutely 0 flat tiles in a 3-hex radius?

Science- and Domination-wonders--they're all the same wonders. Both VC need the same things: lots of science, lots of hammers. Amundsen-Scott gives lots of science, and lots of hammers.

My only experience with Diplomatic is an easy game rigged just to give me an easy DV and a steam achievement, so I can't speak to that. At least, beyond just "if it gives Diplomatic Victory points, build it".

ANY wonder that gives faith is useful for a religious victory. And if you bring in Divine Inspiration belief to a city which has wonders, I've got news for you: they all give faith. It's just that the obviously religious wonders are MORE useful toward an RV. With the possible exception of Mont St. Michel, which is overrated (martyrdom is only a consolation prize for when you lose theological combat). And Jebel Barkel, which is actually very good if you place it well.

Alhambra is underrated for non-Domination VC (*IF* you can actually manage to build it first), because it adds a valuable military policy slot to your non-military governments. I mean, if you go Democracy, you get a whopping 1 military slot. This doubles it to 2. Alhambra's usefulness as a fort is almost zero, because if you wait at all for the right time & place to place it, you won't win the wonder.


All the VC mash together anyway, so I have to go back to my first point: the wonders are situational, and not primarily about VC. You can get SV by way of combatively knocking down the leading AI a few notches, DiploV by way of killing all your non-allies using Casus Belli, RV by way of pillaging faith tiles, CV by way of conquering wonders and theater districts. Well okay, maybe they all go back to domination.​

 

[Archon_Wing]

Not sure why Ruhr Valley is not-so-good in a 100-hammer city. Surely a city like that would get a Spaceport and be your primary project-building city. Or throw up an Aerodrome and get some good planes for all your cities. Unless maybe that city has absolutely 0 flat tiles in a 3-hex radius?

Because of the way SV works now, there is not really a primary project city. Even before there really wasn't.

You're spending 1230 production (assume you use the wonder card) to grant maybe 40 production in one city, taking over 30 turns to break even. Perhaps science victories may take that long, and like I said has use. But for stuff like Culture Victory, it's probably a bad idea.

Compared against say, the Amundsen Scott station which boosts science and production in all cities while not even costing much more (though it comes later), it just doesn't hold very well.

Alhambra is underrated for non-Domination VC (*IF* you can actually manage to build it first), because it adds a valuable military policy slot to your non-military governments. I mean, if you go Democracy, you get a whopping 1 military slot. This doubles it to 2. Alhambra's usefulness as a fort is almost zero, because if you wait at all for the right time & place to place it, you won't win the wonder.

It is a good wonder but rather hard to build.

ANY wonder that gives faith is useful for a religious victory. And if you bring in Divine Inspiration belief to a city which has wonders, I've got news for you: they all give faith. It's just that the obviously religious wonders are MORE useful toward an RV.

Opportunity cost. It is not true that any benefit is worth it, because wonders cost production. You could run projects, and Divine Inspiration requires you to build wonders to generate faith. You're far better off making new cities even with a weak holy site, than building a wonder devoted to it. Or take cities.

Though tbh I would be much more strict with building wonders. Most wonders can be skipped for more practical things, so everything needs to be taken with a grain of salt. In fact I would tell new players to not build wonders at all except a select few.

 

[tetley]

Because of the way SV works now, there is not really a primary project city. Even before there really wasn't.

You're spending 1230 production (assume you use the wonder card) to grant maybe 40 production in one city, taking over 30 turns to break even. Perhaps science victories may take that long, and like I said has use. But for stuff like Culture Victory, it's probably a bad idea.

An accidental, poorly-planned Cultural victory--which admittedly most of mine are--I can have well over 30 turns after Ruhr is built. I almost never go for low turn count. I haven't gone for HOF since Civ3 (and even then, I wasn't going for it--it was more like an accident). I go for knocking down the leading AI(s) a few notches, so that I win because the AI did worse.

Moderator Action: Snipped your analogy because it was inappropriate. leif

 

[Pietato]

Orgzadahsgasz is perhaps the best Diplomatic Victory wonder, depending on how you use the points ones. Giving it a B rating is criminal.

 

[CoconutTank]

Országház is fun, but it doesn't directly give points, and the DF bonus from Országház is still conditional on being suzerain of the CSes, which one can be locked out of. Wonders like Mahabodi Temple, Patola Palace and Statue of Liberty directly give DV points, so they're relatively more important for DVs, and it makes sense that they'd be A.

 

[Archon_Wing]

The points ones are always going to be more important. I mean Orszaghaz is a good wonder, and you should build it if it's there but it's not one I would go out of my way to build.

For Diplo Victories, I think it's most important to advance up the culture tree and build the diplo wonders. Getting better cards/economy/future civic is also going to make your empire more successful at doing contests and whatnot.

 

[lotrmith]

I made a spreadsheet lately on this:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OHwMDzqUwb8tr1tRFCtihfLX1eCXuP9pmTaz4w23Y60/edit?usp=sharing

Not everyone will agree; just my opinion. Also this does not take in account certain exploits. Building wonders for Domination/Diplomation wins seems academical since you'll probably conquering the wonders instead.

While Ruhr Valley, Great Zimbabwe, and Chichen Itza have their use, I decided to not recommend them at all since there's a good chance people (including myself) will screw up and actually set themselves behind. (eg, if you build Ruhr Valley in a 100 production city, you might think you're doing something but you're really not.). And Great Zimbabwe is the only wonder that can literally cost you the game, plus the strategy that revolves around it is not that great anyways. In general, while I feel they may fall into a well planned game, I also feel you could just skip these wonders every game so the end result is neutral.

Aside from being generally unnecessary, what's wrong with Great Zimbabwe?

 

[Archon_Wing]

what's wrong with Great Zimbabwe?

Occasionally we get a post from people that put their entire economy into it and then go bankrupt because a spy siphoned funds from it. They then lose all their money and everything starts disbanding and rebelling, which starts a downward spiral.

While you can prevent this with a spy, counterspying is not fullproof. And thus this makes the only wonder that could singlehandedly cost you the game if used improperly.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Diplomatic Victory:
Of course you need Potala Palace, Mohabodhi and Statue of Liberty

Domination Victory:
Nothing, why don't you dominate those wonders?

Science Victory:
Amendson Scott, Mausoleum of Harlicarnassus and Great Pyramid

Culture Victory:
Maracana, Eiffel Tower and Christo Redentor

Religious Victory:
Mohabodhi again, maybe Hagia Sophia?

 

[Isengardtom]

Agree with Lily

Hagia definitely good for religious
Maybe Ruhr for science. (You can build it before the actual space stuff begins so I don’t completely agree with the production cost argument made a few posts ago, but I understand what you’re saying)

pyramids are universally good, as are the policy ones, and unlike apadana or colosseum these days, pyramids usually don’t go too fast to grab on higher difficulty.

 

[Victoria]

So much is difficulty based, especially the later wonders. GOTM this month was at prince and a traditional CV with just Pryamids, Oracle Coli was great. Sure I built a couple more through boredom but that’s just flavour.

 

[lotrmith]

Occasionally we get a post from people that put their entire economy into it and then go bankrupt because a spy siphoned funds from it. They then lose all their money and everything starts disbanding and rebelling, which starts a downward spiral.

While you can prevent this with a spy, counterspying is not fullproof. And thus this makes the only wonder that could singlehandedly cost you the game if used improperly.

I thought that might be the issue but then if you're not counterspying, and generally spending your excess cash, well that's a preventable problem.

 

[Xandinho]

Diplomatic - Statue of Liberty, as this automatically gives you 4 points for dv. Orszaghaz is good but you don't get much out of it if you're not suzerain of many city states, as AI loves to break into them.

Cultural - Oracle, because it is quite useful throughout the match and is not map dependent. Cristo Redentor and Eiffel Tower depend on the amount of coastal territory you have.

Religious - Hagia Sophia, most religious wonders are quite weak and unnecessary, Hagia Sophia is the only one that can make a difference with the extra spread charge.

Scientific - Mausoleum of Harlicarnassus, because of the science on coastal tiles and the extra charge for great engineers, really useful.

Domination - You don't need to build wonder since you can conquest.

 

[Archon_Wing]

I thought that might be the issue but then if you're not counterspying, and generally spending your excess cash, well that's a preventable problem.

It is. But like I said above, in the hands of people that don't really get it, it's a hazard.

 

[Civ Chemist]

I would argue Mont St. Michel is the most important wonder for culture victories. Even without reliquaries you'll get at least +4 tourism per relic and at least 8 before enlightenment and after Cristo. Mahabodi is also great if you plan to get Mont St. Michel. It is very easy to get (as long as you have founded a religion) and is equivalent to at least 800 faith.

Culture Victory:
Maracana, Eiffel Tower and Christo Redentor

Why Maracana for culture? It comes super late, huge production cost (you also need stadium), you don't really need culture at that stage of the game and provides almost no tourism. So the only reason would be the amenities. But in culture games most of my cities will already be ecstatic thanks to ski resorts and national parks.

 

[enKage]

For religion victory I prefer Meenakshi for +5 religious combat