Beta 3: Comments/Suggestions/Bugs

[Dale]

Use this thread to post anything about beta 3 which has been made available.

Comments:

Please do NOT turn this into a political debate thread. Only comments about the actual beta 3 should be made. Any non-beta 3 related comments (yes, even the validity of certain ideologies or political parties) post in a new thread.

Suggestions:

If you want to suggest something, first think about how it would affect the game. I will not add a suggestion that detracts any other part of the mod. Also, any sensitive topics will be glossed over too.

Bugs:

Please provide full details of the bug, and screenshots (press PRINT SCREEN and save into Paint) and save games (before and after the bug preferably). Also state whether what versions you are using (eg: BtS 3.03, beta 3 movies/no movies).

AI performance:

NOTE:
AI assault performance has been boosted, and it will attempt naval invasions (EG: Germany to Norway, Japan to the islands). However, AI defense has also been boosted. So it can assault and defend better. The result may be that the AI doesn't appear to be doing better than beta 2 AI, but in fact it's invading and defending against the invasions better.

 

[Horizons]

The add-on pack thread should be sticky.

 

[vidimce]

AI Performance:
1939, accurate historical events.
I am playing as the Soviet Union. Germany lagged a bit in conquering Poland. Did not manage to land in Norway. It took Germany a loong time to destroy the Low Countries. They declared war on me and still havent destroyed the low countries. Only Paris and Calais were captured from the French and West Balkan is still untouched. On the Eastern front I conquered Konigsburg and Warsaw as soon as they declared war on me. Later on Chisnau and Buchurest From East Balkan. Even the USA is in the war now and Axis havent acomplished nothing serious. I am yet to be attacked by a force larger then 2 infantry and a panzer. I havent noticed any aerial attacks from the AI either.
Its been very quiet and Germany didnt finish any invasion in time (or not at all) which in turn probably got them to this situation. Im expecting Albania, Danzig, Budapest , Breslau , Krakow to be mine by the end of the year.

I dont think the AI is more aggressive in Beta 3, on the opposite it seems a lot more quiet and defensive.

 

[Dale]

vidimce:

I think that's more an issue of the 1939 start. The new AI code is more designed around the '36 starts. From a '36 start I've seen armies over 300 each for Germany and USSR by June '41.

This will be an interesting dilemma. Have an AI that can play well from '36 or '39?

Edit: 400 -> 300. Hit the wrong key.

 

[vidimce]

I definitely would go for '39 since thats when officially World War 2 started and all the invasions and fighting were going on.

I havent tried '36 yet. BTW are you referring to '36 open play or historical events or both ?

 

[Dazz_G]

My preference is '36 Historic ... after all, how you prepare your infrastructure and build your armies in accordance with your plans is more important to me than starting in '39 with the standard 50 Infantry and 6 Tanks and little infrastructure.

 

[Tboy]

I have noticed that the turns are a lot slower in the latest beta - possibly this is due to the better AI?

 

[Dale]

The AI will stay written for a '36 start. In fact the '39 scenario was only added later in development for those who didn't want to do the build-up.

The AI will be a little slower, but I think the increase in war-ability makes up for it.

 

[Dale]

BTW, ran an AI Autoplay testgame, and when the Axis finally fell in '46 USA had taken most of Italy and southern Germany. A victory for the AI!

 

[Tboy]

I'm definitely in favour of better AI over turn times, but it'd be good if somehow game turns could be sped up without detracting from the rest of the scenario.

Still, apart from that, it's great! Playing a game as the Soviet Union at the moment, and Finland is certainly going to pose a challenge...

 

[vidimce]

Marines and Paratroopers.

They are overpowered. Having a strength of 20 (more powerful then most infantry's) plus a bonus ability; paradrop or amphibious warfare, they pretty much obsolete weaker countries infrantry. They also cost less to produce, one more reason to build them instead of regular infantry. They also can have the +25% vs gunpowder units promotion making them very powerful, flexible and able to destroy most infantry. Furthermore Paratroopers and Marines destroy the balance of the game from a historic point of view. Before Germany would be fighting improved French infantry (str 15) with Germany's 20str Infantry, being able to destroy em pretty easy. Now the French build Marines with str 20 and +25 % vs gunpowder units promotion You get the drift.
Because of these reasons the marines and the paratroopers are now the ultimate combat unit early in the game which shouldn't be so.

I suggest either 'nerfin them down to 15-17' or disabling their +25% vs gunpowder units promotion to balance things out.

 

[Tboy]

Marines and Paratroopers.

They are overpowered. Having a strength of 20 (more powerful then most infantry's) plus a bonus ability; paradrop or amphibious warfare, they pretty much obsolete weaker countries infrantry. They also cost less to produce, one more reason to build them instead of regular infantry. They also can have the +25% vs gunpowder units promotion making them very powerful, flexible and able to destroy most infantry. Furthermore Paratroopers and Marines destroy the balance of the game from a historic point of view. Before Germany would be fighting improved French infantry (str 15) with Germany's 20str Infantry, being able to destroy em pretty easy. Now the French build Marines with str 20 and +25 % vs gunpowder units promotion You get the drift.
Because of these reasons the marines and the paratroopers are now the ultimate combat unit early in the game which shouldn't be so.

I suggest either 'nerfin them down to 15-17' or disabling their +25% vs gunpowder units promotion to balance things out.

Maybe adding in upgrades for the marines and paratroopers like the rest of the units?

 

[VeteranLurker]

I've played a 1936 historic start into 1942 or so as Italy on Noble with the latest mod, and so far the AI seems improved. A couple of turns after the USA joined the war, they dropped 3 transports worth of units on Italian-controlled West Africa. Northern Europe did not go entirely 'according to script': Poland was eventually sacked, and Germany took some cities from France early on, but otherwise there has been little land changing hands other than in Poland and the Balkans.

There are some oddities though. The Low Countries do seem to be a powerhouse -- Germany bypassed them and did an amphib assault on France instead. Immediately after Russia joined the war, they dropped a transport-load of troops into Libya -- a transport they must have already had floating around in the central Mediterranean. I've also noticed the usual border-integrity/priority issue when I glanced at northern Europe: I am taking cities from Russia along the Black Sea, but they are dropping units into Denmark to fight with Germany (though it is possible that those troops have been there for quite some time, I didn't notice when they showed up).

I've noticed the marine/paratrooper superiority issue also. I can handle marines being more powerful than early and medium infantry, but perhaps they should cost slightly more also. Similarly for paratroopers: they are specialized and should cost slightly more; and one can make the argument that paratroopers should be slightly less powerful since they are designed to airdrop without heavy equipment/weapons (it would be a fine-tuning only, since paratroopers are balanced by potentially being intercepted during the airdrop). I think the promotions are fine as is, since one has to actually attend to them to make them useful.

 

[Horizons]

Playing as Germany on Noble difficulty with Beta 3:

Air missions are now severely nerfed. Before, it was possible to cripple the whole of Britain and France with the Luftwaffe and keep them out of the war until they were conquered. That this has been fixed has improved the game greatly. Britain can now hold its own (to some extent) against Germany. However, I find that it is inevitable that Britain will fall at some point as I always manage to find time to launch a successful amphibious invasion of Britain. I suppose the only solution to this is to resist the temptation to invade Britain and waste the troops on campaigns in Africa instead. ;-) Although I am surprised that Britain's colony, Canada, does not bring more troops over to reinforce the British isles. America should be landing troops in Britain too after it enters the war in 1941.

Tank destroyers are now far too weak. They should either be strength 20 or should remain at strength 15 with +100% against armour. Otherwise they are weaker than artillery and the powerful German tanks have no real counter. The anti-tank gun should be replaced with the anti-tank unit in normal BTS because its graphics are better. ;-) The anti-aircraft gun, besides being rather weak and pointless, could be doing with some graphical polishing. ANd of course I'd love to see the remaining units get their unique graphics. The addition of new unit graphics in this Beta was awesome. I love seeing each plane and tank for each nation have its own graphics. Maybe I'm just superficial but this enhances the game beyond words.

I noticed that it is well worth capturing Norway (as Germany) as the terrain is rather good and one can pump out units from these cities quite quickly after a bit of worker investment. With airbases these units can then be flown in to garrison newly captured cities on the Ostfront or elsewhere in the world. Seems a bit of a waste to use them to produce ships, which I usually have the coastal cities back in German dedicated towards. HOwever, it takes absolutely FOREVER to conquer all the Norwegian cities! (Even longer if one has started in 1936 and they are all heavily defended.)

East Balkans and Italy are completely hopeless at assisting my war effort in the East. I think the AI is building too many fighers and not enough units. THese fighers are then largely left to intercept, so that the aerial combat system has been neutered somewhat. I like that the Luftwaffe get decimated if they carry on operations against French and British targets, as this is realistic. But the French cities collapse in no time under the weight of the Panzer attacks. Why does France have next to no army? I suppose this is realistic as well.

THe AI does not use ships to bombard tile improvements, it seems, and this puts it at a disadvantage. Ranged bombardment is one of the best additions in this game. I wish it was in epic BTS! The AI is probably not bombing enough, however, because I found my industrial output growing and growing until I was at the point, as early as December 1942, with an army four times the size of my nearest competitor (which was the USA I think). From there it was a case of mopping up and invading the USA over the seas. MAybe playing on a higher difficulty level would fix this. I also must play as nations other than Germany to see how the computer fares as the Nazis. (I'll definitely try the Soviet Union and Britain and use historical tactics: in the case of the SU, retreating from front-line cities, amassing forces further back and then encircling the Germans.)

I mentioned it once before but it's disappointing that there's no Soviet Union east of Stalingrad. The SOviet Union has very little productive capacity and is easily wiped out by the Germans. There should be more Russian cities on this map, and they should start out with little infrastructure, so that by around 1942/43 they will have started to build up a little and give the Soviets the chance to beat back the Germans. Don't really see how the Soviets can compete with Germany at the moment. This is highly unrealistic as the Soviets as you know took the brunt of German aggression and did most of the grunt work in pushing them back and defeating them.

That being said, the USA doesn't seem to contribute much to the war effort either.

The AI loves to build paratroopers and marines more than it does its own infatry. This is saddening because it means less of the unique unit graphics (for nation-specific infantry) and this reduces the flavour of the game. Another superficial point.

The UK no longer has any north sea oil?

 

[Dale]

Hmm....... so who do you think the winner is here? Mid-1948.

This is a AI autoplay under the new naval rules.

 

[LingLinsRevenge]

Hmmm -- kind of looks bad for the US --

In your modification -- did you give bombers ship kill?

I think that bomber should stay as they are, while fighters are only ones to have ship kill --

This should nerf the strength of land based air

(bombers are land only, while fighters are both) --

It would be interesting to see the list of units created and killed for US, Japan, UK, Aust

In the Auto play, do you collect information on what kills what?

Why do you think this result came about?

 

[VeteranLurker]

Dale, Will games started in add-on beta-3 be portable to future add-ons to the scenario? We're starting a PBEM and figure that our game will be portable if patches are issued but are wondering about the add-ons.

 

[Dale]

They won't be compatible with the new BtS patch up-coming, and won't be compatible with the final release of the add-on (which is now built on the patch). Sorry mate.

 

[VeteranLurker]

THanks. So, since we haven't started yet and the patch is imminent, it would behoove us to wait for the new patch/add-on. Any idea when that is due?

 

[LtCowprod]

Ok much like the german scenario, mine with britian is quite similar. The AI seems a bit lax and skiddish. Germany had a formidible army to start, which *vanished* and then never managed to do anything.

They sent one fleet of 4 battleships, handful of cruisers, and about 8 landing crafts ... destination? presumably low countries. Those were obliterated by one of the six royal navy fleets. Which I then moved to the german coastal cities, obliterated every improvement with a battleship radius and recaptured copenhagen the same turn it was captured.

I quickly asked my buddies the french to invade Rhine, which they didn't but had the force to. 3-4 turns later its stocked full of tanks, marines, and paratroopers... I guess the french sent notice of the invasion. Well this left Kiel open so I obliged, as well as moving into Bremmen.

France never was invaded, and when the Italians joined the war they were just as laughable. I rolled through venice, turin, as well as africa then up through the islands grabbing them all. Which I give to the french so I could move on to the boot. Which is vanquished of any tile improvements thanks to the other third of the royal navy. The last two fleets have had a boring job docked in inverness and london.

Basically I'm ending my campaign now as its ascertained I could roll through germany and the boot ... probably before them traitors the US (whos spies have destroyed my Airforce base in Fredicton about 6 times) ever have a chance to get involved.

Oh yea and I think I was only bombed about 3 times the whole time. Each time by Duce, with a single improved bomber. Maybe they're scared of my aircraft carriers full of hurricanes? The germans have seriously had a better airforce the whole time... they should've been bombing my fleets.