Beta 5 Talk

[3Miro]

I am starting a new thread to keep things organized. Many of the old discussions are no longer valid.

Beta 5 is out, get it at sourceforge

https://sourceforge.net/projects/rfceurope/

Here is a probably incomplete list of the changes:

Spoiler :

- added merijn_v1 XML modifications, some unit abilities and removing old and unused XML entries
- Fixed the Papal Culture Bug
- Fixed Venetian UHV
- Moved Hungarian and Kievan starting turns, with no conflict with Cordoba, we can use more historical dates (note on the bug of one extra autoturn)
- Added info for Stability, Faith, GP and GG
- Removed the exile mechanics
- Nerf to the Barbarians around Frankia, to many to allow you to grow
- Changed the Bulgarian Konnik to more appropriate early Lancer, Bulgaria now gets fewer Konniks on spawn (looks balanced)
- Cordoba and Turkey now start Muslim, the Dutch start Protestant
- Moved the Autorun constants to Python (now we don't have to worry about strange bugs like fighting barbs or meeting other nations before you spawn, if we change the unit XML files, just keep Python in sync)
- Updated small region on the map in the middle of the desert, has to do with the Autorun so "don't touch"
- Get a speedup the hack on the semi-random bugfix from Beta 4 (look below)
- Move University to Philosophy, Education gives a free GS
- National University goes to Paper
- Brewery: +1 Happy, Happyness with berley, (removed one person scientist, I didn't realize we had that with the Monasteries), lowered cost
- Change the Smokeshouse to give health from meat, changed the cost of building it
- Guild hall gives an engineer, an engeneer slot and a merchant slot
- Removed Stability bonus from the Dungeon
- Cordoba, Turkey and the Dutch start with their religions already set
- Updated main menu music (much better quality)
- Market gives only one Merchant slot
- Inn gives +2 esp, 10% gold with wine, -10 war worry and 1 spy slot
- Many wonders now require a specific state religion (as opposed to a religion being in the city)
- Changed the Manor House to give money early on
- Manor house gives +2 gold only with Manorialism (the AI is "aware" of that)
- Early Lancers and Heavy Lancers are somewhat OP, rased the cost of tech and construction
- Mounted Sergeants and Horse Archers come with Stirrup
- Lancers reuire Farriers, Heavy Lancers require Blast Furnace
- The cost of early mounted units has increased
- Hungarian Huszars are not lighter version of Heavy Cavalry, they don't require Iron, they are a bit cheaper, strength reduced to 9 (very few units have bonus vs light-cavalry)
- Hungary starts with 3 Horse Archers (in place of a Swordsman and an Axeman)
- Ghazi are the same as before (didn't want to mess up Arabia)
- Druzjina and Cataphrac also require Blast Furnace and have their cost increased
- The strength of Pistoler increased to 12
- Chateau moved as Frankia's UB, Salon moved to Burgundy (we probably need something completely different for Burgundy, I think Brewery -> Winery for Burgundian wine)
- Chateau bonus changed to +2 hammers (Frankia can really use the boost early on)
- Brothers in Faith bonus (i.e. Round Church) gives you penalty to diplomacy with people form the same faith (keep Orthodox fighting each other, as they were historically)
- Civs without state religion (i.e. Pagans) suffee diplomatic penalty from players with State Religion
- Turkey should finally be getting Constantinople
- Changed the AI flags for the Mediterranean pirates to act more like the Vikings

The big things are:
- the Ottoman AI that should capture Constantinople (even if you play another civ, please use the WorldBuilder to keep an eye on whether or not this is working).
- Early Frank Empire, the synergy between Manorialism and Manor House/Chateau
- Changes to buildings and early cavalry units

Many changes have been made to the .dll file and not all of them are "pretty". Some are rather ugly hacks that have not been fully tested yet (this is your job right?) Please report random crashes WITH SAVEGAMES. I have no way of fixing anything unless I have a savegame to work with.

At this point of the mod I declare that we have an AI that is about as competent as they come. It is not perfect and we will still work on it, but we should switch focus from the AI to the player. We should make sure we have a good set of historically accurate, gameplay challenging, fun to play UHVs.

When I say Historically accurate, note that at least one UHV for every nation should be something that they have failed in real history. One example from RFC is the survival of Rome. Another is Bulgaria capturing Constantinople or Turkey capturing Vienna. Right now, not all nations have UHv conditions like that. One note is Venice, it would be way more fun to ask them to build one colonial project (as opposed to the Marco Polo Embassy or capturing the resources).

Anyway, let the comments begin.

 

[AbsintheRed]

First few comments:
You forget to change that Huszars replacing Armored Lancers, not Horse Archers
Right now Hungary cannot build HA...

Also, in the previous versions Lancers and Armored Lancers required Feudalism too
I think it's better if that also stays, so Lancers need Farriers and Feudalism, while Armored Lancers need Farriers, Blast Furnace and Feudalism
In the civilopedia the small Armored Lancer icon should be moved to Blast Furnace

Manor Houses look good, though I still think it's obsolation was better with Constitution.
You should put under Manoralism in the civics advisor that it gives +2 gold with Manor Houses

Removed Stability bonus from the Dungeon

Now that one of the stability bonuses is removed, shouldn't we put it back to Courthouses? I found this really appropriate on them
I think they were only removed not to have stability bonus for 5 buildings...
So Manor Houses, Castles, Courthouses and Night Watches would give that extra stability
(In Beta 1 it was Manor House, Courthouse, Dungeon, Night Watch)

One note is Venice, it would be way more fun to ask them to build one colonial project (as opposed to the Marco Polo Embassy or capturing the resources).

I absolutely second this. Theoretically it was possible to colonize from the mediterrean coast too
If the Venitian Republic was stonger in the 16-17th century, there could have been some huge venetian colonies after all. If we go this way, an atlantic acces should appaer near the city of Venice around 1600


EDIT: just checked the hungarian spawn
Right now it's 3 Horse Archers and 1 Guisarme
There is really no place for Guisarme in the early Hungarian army, even if it's for defensive purposes for the AI. I would rather give an extra unit than using Guisarme
So I would change it to 4 Horse Archers and 2 Axeman. Horse Archers are useless in city conquest, and pillaging the neighbors is perfectly historical.
Also, the bulgarians start 2 hundred years earlier with 4 Konniks, which is there UU and much stronger than HA, so this way it sounds more balanced to me

Btw, Konniks sounds overpowered for me. They have +2 first strikes, immune to first strikes, 40% withdrawal chance - so act like light cavalry, which I don't really get why if they are a Lancer replacement
They also have +20% vs archers, +15% vs polearm, +20% vs heavy infantry. These annulates the -20% city attack, and makes them way superior in open combat and in city defence
Oh and they come earlier than regular Lancers
I would drop all the light cavalry bonuses and reduce their strength to 6

 

[AbsintheRed]

Merijn, some civilopedia fixes:
Add in the description of buildings (only the cathedrals are new AFAIK) and wonders if they need state religion
Change végvár to vegvar, and cháteau to chateau (till we find a solution to the character issues on the map)
For manor house the bonuses should be in two lines:
- +1 stability
- +2 gold with maroralism

Maybe the infirmary can go back to +2 health, now that I know it's for knight hospitaller only, it's not overpowered at all.
Or even better: also reduce the bonus of apothecary to 1 health. They are much cheaper that aqueduct after all

While checking the religious buildings I noticed the Islamic Madrassa. Shouldn't they be uniformized to be similar to the monasteries?
If yes, they should be reduced to +15% science, and shouldn't need state religion

The +25% bonus for all the 3 types of belfry and for the minaret seems a little much to me
They are tied to the churches so you can build muliple of them in a multireligious city. I would give them +1 culture and +10% culture instead

 

[ezzlar]

Great scientist: Shouldnt this guy have some use? Civilipedia mentions academy but you can only use it for golden age or specialist.

Venetia: The two wonders and ten luxury resources. Colonize all those islands. Build one colonial project (war required to get atlantic access). By 1300/1200/1400.

Spies: Why not just remove everything around espionage? All slots, great spies and buildings. I dont think it matches the mod so good.

Cavalry: The cavalry unit that becomes available with economics is obsolete once you get there. Forgot the name.

Dungeon: Shouldnt have health penalty. Surely not all citizens were put behind bars?

 

[merijn_v1]

Merijn, some civilopedia fixes:
Add in the description of buildings (only the cathedrals are new AFAIK) and wonders if they need state religion
Change végvár to vegvar, and cháteau to chateau (till we find a solution to the character issues on the map)
For manor house the bonuses should be in two lines:
- +1 stability
- +2 gold with maroralism

Fixed.

The text for buildings that require a state-religion are already present. If it only needs the religion in the city, it is shown in the bar that also shows which tech (and for corps) resources are required.

 

[AbsintheRed]

The text for buildings that require a state-religion are already present. If it only needs the religion in the city, it is shown in the bar that also shows which tech (and for corps) resources are required.

Really?
The correct religion's icons are already there for all the cathedrals and wonders, but as you said this means they only need religion present in the city
I can't find anything regarding 3Miro's changes that now they require state religion too

 

[3Miro]

First few comments:
You forget to change that Huszars replacing Armored Lancers, not Horse Archers
Right now Hungary cannot build HA...

Ops, my bad.

Also, in the previous versions Lancers and Armored Lancers required Feudalism too
I think it's better if that also stays, so Lancers need Farriers and Feudalism, while Armored Lancers need Farriers, Blast Furnace and Feudalism
In the civilopedia the small Armored Lancer icon should be moved to Blast Furnace

Changing the Icon is easy, but as is, Units require 2 techs. We can go around this by making Feudalism a prerequisite for Blast Furnace.

Manor Houses look good, though I still think it's obsolation was better with Constitution.
You should put under Manoralism in the civics advisor that it gives +2 gold with Manor Houses

Manor house only gives +1 Stability when it is build. Nobody would be running Manoralism that late. I will see if I can put the text in.

Now that one of the stability bonuses is removed, shouldn't we put it back to Courthouses? I found this really appropriate on them
I think they were only removed not to have stability bonus for 5 buildings...
So Manor Houses, Castles, Courthouses and Night Watches would give that extra stability
(In Beta 1 it was Manor House, Courthouse, Dungeon, Night Watch)

Nations already seem very stable, besides 50% less maintenance is already a worthy bonus.

(Venice)

I absolutely second this. Theoretically it was possible to colonize from the mediterrean coast too
If the Venitian Republic was stonger in the 16-17th century, there could have been some huge venetian colonies after all. If we go this way, an atlantic acces should appaer near the city of Venice around 1600

The whole point it to not give Venice any Atlantic Access. Let them fight with Cordoba/Spain/Portugal/Independents for control of Gibraltar.

EDIT: just checked the hungarian spawn
Right now it's 3 Horse Archers and 1 Guisarme
There is really no place for Guisarme in the early Hungarian army, even if it's for defensive purposes for the AI. I would rather give an extra unit than using Guisarme
So I would change it to 4 Horse Archers and 2 Axeman. Horse Archers are useless in city conquest, and pillaging the neighbors is perfectly historical.
Also, the bulgarians start 2 hundred years earlier with 4 Konniks, which is there UU and much stronger than HA, so this way it sounds more balanced to me

It will not make that much of difference, early on you will be fighting with couple of barb cities in the area only (with the free victories vs barbs, even HA are good). By the time you get into a bigger war, you should have Huzars. I will make it 4 HA 2 Axe.

Note that Bulgaria needs the Konniks to go after Byzantium right away. Otherwise it is impossible to do the UHV, Bulgaria would collapse early one and Byzantium would become a superpower.

Btw, Konniks sounds overpowered for me. They have +2 first strikes, immune to first strikes, 40% withdrawal chance - so act like light cavalry, which I don't really get why if they are a Lancer replacement
They also have +20% vs archers, +15% vs polearm, +20% vs heavy infantry. These annulates the -20% city attack, and makes them way superior in open combat and in city defence
Oh and they come earlier than regular Lancers
I would drop all the light cavalry bonuses and reduce their strength to 6

First strikes are a leftover. They should be removed. The idea behind the Konniks is that they can take anything that is out in the open and force Byzantines to hide in their cities. On the other hand, the Konniks should have hard time getting any cities. By the time Hungary spawns and by the time you get close enough to "spark tensions" you should have Huzas already, which are more powerful then the Konnik (you can build regular Lancers from the start and they are better for taking cities).

 

[3Miro]

Really?
The correct religion's icons are already there for all the cathedrals and wonders, but as you said this means they only need religion present in the city
I can't find anything regarding 3Miro's changes that now they require state religion too

Corporations required Catholicism as a state religion in Beta 4. Some of the World Wonders too. I changed the Round Church and the large Cathedrals to require state religion. Regular monasteries don't require state religion.

Muslims are the exception, historically, even Poland prosecuted the Muslims. So you can build mosques, but that's it. Besides the Islamic Hose of Wisdom is very powerful, it should be allowed for Muslims only.

 

[3Miro]

Great scientist: Shouldnt this guy have some use? Civilipedia mentions academy but you can only use it for golden age or specialist.

Venetia: The two wonders and ten luxury resources. Colonize all those islands. Build one colonial project (war required to get atlantic access). By 1300/1200/1400.

Spies: Why not just remove everything around espionage? All slots, great spies and buildings. I dont think it matches the mod so good.

Cavalry: The cavalry unit that becomes available with economics is obsolete once you get there. Forgot the name.

Dungeon: Shouldnt have health penalty. Surely not all citizens were put behind bars?

Good points. I think the spies should stay (although we can make spy missions have higher cost overall).

I will look into the rest.

 

[ezzlar]

Spies: Its so annoying when the AI assigns the specialist slot to "spy" as soon as you build courthouse. The spy unit is ok but I would prefer that no building gave spy slot.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Corporations required Catholicism as a state religion in Beta 4. Some of the World Wonders too. I changed the Round Church and the large Cathedrals to require state religion. Regular monasteries don't require state religion.

Yeah, it's perfectly clear
I just said that the requires state religion info isn't in the civilopedia yet for cathedrals and wonders

Muslims are the exception, historically, even Poland prosecuted the Muslims. So you can build mosques, but that's it. Besides the Islamic Hose of Wisdom is very powerful, it should be allowed for Muslims only.

We agree on the House of Wisdom
But the Madrassa is closely tied to the Mosques AFAIK, that's why I asked. If Mosques can be build with religion present in the city, I don't see the difference why Madrassas not.
Also, right now it gives +25% science, while monasteries give +15%. Not necessary an issue, just mentioned

 

[merijn_v1]

Yeah, it's perfectly clear
I just said that the requires state religion info isn't in the civilopedia yet for cathedrals and wonders

Look at the red text in the civilopedia at one of the crusader corps and you will see that it's already there.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Changing the Icon is easy, but as is, Units require 2 techs. We can go around this by making Feudalism a prerequisite for Blast Furnace.

I like this solution

Manor house only gives +1 Stability when it is build. Nobody would be running Manoralism that late. I will see if I can put the text in.

Yeah you are right, Divine Right is more than enough.
Manor houses will have a long enough run till that tech too

Nations already seem very stable, besides 50% less maintenance is already a worthy bonus.

More stability always comes in handy, especially if we are succed making the AI wage wars more often
And I don't feel this would make courthouses OP

The whole point it to not give Venice any Atlantic Access. Let them fight with Cordoba/Spain/Portugal/Independents for control of Gibraltar.

This also seems a good solution
But then make Gibraltar to be important in all 4 civs war zone. Maybe on England's too

Note that Bulgaria needs the Konniks to go after Byzantium right away. Otherwise it is impossible to do the UHV, Bulgaria would collapse early one and Byzantium would become a superpower.

First strikes are a leftover. They should be removed. The idea behind the Konniks is that they can take anything that is out in the open and force Byzantines to hide in their cities. On the other hand, the Konniks should have hard time getting any cities.

Hm, then keep them at 7 strength, but also remove the bonus vs archers. They won't really fight them on open fields anyway.
All the light cavalry bonuses should also go

 

[AbsintheRed]

Look at the red text in the civilopedia at one of the crusader corps and you will see that it's already there.

I know it's there for crusader corps...
I will check it again right now, but I really didn't find the same for the cathedrals and the wonders which were changed recently

 

[yogiebere]

This looks great!
I second a lot of comments from Absinthe

1. I like the idea of the winery, that seems like a good boost for Burgundy. I'd still like Burgundy to expand a little more north though. They take Marseilles very quickly making it difficult even for a human Genoa to take it in a timely manner. They don't go much farther north than Dijon, so Belgium and the Netherlands aren't occupied much until the Dutch come which isn't historically accurate at all

2. Did the monasteries even get revamped? I didn't see that in the change log notes

3. Is it just me or does the pistolier seem overpowered?

4. I'll be doing several runs as the Dutch to see the course of events and see if any civs are still overpowered (hopefully Bulgarias power is checked)

 

[3Miro]

This looks great!
I second a lot of comments from Absinthe

1. I like the idea of the winery, that seems like a good boost for Burgundy. I'd still like Burgundy to expand a little more north though. They take Marseilles very quickly making it difficult even for a human Genoa to take it in a timely manner. They don't go much farther north than Dijon, so Belgium and the Netherlands aren't occupied much until the Dutch come which isn't historically accurate at all

2. Did the monasteries even get revamped? I didn't see that in the change log notes

3. Is it just me or does the pistolier seem overpowered?

4. I'll be doing several runs as the Dutch to see the course of events and see if any civs are still overpowered (hopefully Bulgarias power is checked)

1. I will make it so.

2. Monasteries had their percents changed, but nothing else (Orthodox = Catholic now).

3. Pistolier is weaker than a Knight and it comes later. At that time, people should have Pikeman easily. Having it at strength 9, when Heavy Lancers had 10 seemed very weak.

4. With the return of the Theodosian Walls, Bulgaria now doesn't get Constantinople. I found another hack to use to give Turkey a bonus, they should be getting it.

 

[merijn_v1]

I like the "new" French UB as a Manor House. But then I think the Burgundian UB should be realy different. I don't like it that 2 civs in France have an UB of the same building. (just brainstorming: Brewery with more happiness, +2 instead of +1 and + 1 with barley and wine, and a little culture bonus.)

An idea for the winery, as I suggested before.

 

[3Miro]

An idea for the winery, as I suggested before.

I don't like the second French UHV. While historical, it overlaps with UHV three. Basically, you have to become a monster in production. My idea was:

- Make the second French UHV: Capture Jerusalem.
- Make the second Burgundian UHV: produce ridiculous amount of culture by xxx (whenever they were overtaken by the French)
- Make winery = Brewery but + 10% Culture with wine.

 

[merijn_v1]

I don't like the second French UHV. While historical, it overlaps with UHV three. Basically, you have to become a monster in production. My idea was:

- Make the second French UHV: Capture Jerusalem.
- Make the second Burgundian UHV: produce ridiculous amount of culture by xxx (whenever they were overtaken by the French)
- Make winery = Brewery but + 10% Culture with wine.

I didn't say anything related to the UHV.

 

[3Miro]

I didn't say anything related to the UHV.

Sorry, I had to scroll back a few posts/threads. Extra happiness with wine looks like an overkill, they already have +1 Happy from their UP. If they cannot grow large enough due to , happiness is meaningless. We can make it extra health with wine. I agree about the culture, just connect it to the UHV.

What do you think about my UHV idea.