Beta UHV discussion

[3Miro]

Ran your save and it seems France has 202987 colonies, which obviously is not right.

I searched the code a bit and it seems unlikely that setNumColonies is being called in error.

3Miro, is it possible that the int holding the number of colonies for each player simply is not initialized properly?

Standard C++ declares int as undefined, however, I think Visual Studio does initialize to 0. I will look into the C++ code again (it is in player constructor and reset), but the number should be properly initialized to 0.

Maybe the number was read wrong after a save/load. Although it should just crash the game, save/load can result in a bad file. I will also look at CvPlayer::read and CvPlayer::write functions.

 

[MariusMR]

Ran your save and it seems France has 202987 colonies, which obviously is not right.

Yeah, that's definitely not right! They haven't even researched Astronomy yet

I should note that I did get a few memory allocation errors with this game due to the huge graphic and simulation load. Is it possible that it corrupted the save files?

Also, does all of this business mean I'll have to start a game as Spain on Monarch again?

 

[3Miro]

Also, does all of this business mean I'll have to start a game as Spain on Monarch again?

You can finish the last UHV and then give yourself a pat on the back even if the game doesn't record your victory.

 

[MariusMR]

You can finish the last UHV and then give yourself a pat on the back even if the game doesn't record your victory.

A very nice and polite way of saying I have to start over again

 

[Sian]

you can aim at winning Domination or prehaps Conquest (possible?)

 

[3Miro]

Ran your save and it seems France has 202987 colonies, which obviously is not right.

I searched the code a bit and it seems unlikely that setNumColonies is being called in error. The code concerning colonies seems to be written properly without assumptions about the number of civs so the added civs should not be a direct problem.

3Miro, is it possible that the int holding the number of colonies for each player simply is not initialized properly?

The m_iNumColonies variable wasn't properly initialized in CvPlayer.cpp. I find it hard to imagine how it didn't come up before, this thing should have messed the game for everyone big time.

At any rate, I fixed it and I will update the changes to the svn. I only needed to add m_iNumColonies = 0 the CvPlayer constructor and CvPlayer::reset function.

 

[amrod]

People have done all the Norse UHV, perhaps they can give some insight. I haven't played the Norse since we increased the Viking Points.

I haven't found Norse reports on this forum though..

Finally I managed to win with them, around 1038 or so, so even before the deadline.

On a historical note, the UHV for Norse is actually less than what they had accomplished. They have captured/founded/plundered many more settlements. And somewhere I read that UHV goals should generally be made as 2 historically accomplished and 1 that wasn't. Of course, this UHV is still hard to do at first. It needed a few restarts.

Basically I had to build the settler early on for Iceland; then produce ships and berserkers. The first two berserkers+archer+swordsman I send to Mercia and capture the city there. Then I have to wait some for Edinburgh to spawn and conquer it, two or three berserkers do it; then Dublin and Novgorod. On first tries it needed 4 berserkers for Novgorod, but on the last they only had one crossbowmen, so 2 berserkers were enough.
Curious though that in my first few trie Sicily was defended with crossbowmen, but on my last try they only had archers. Maybe because I came a few turns earlier? That would mean it's best to collect at least 4 (or 6) berserkers early on and then send them to Sicily. It's good to use the amphibious attack, this way you won't have wounded units stranded on land.
I left Normandy for last, as France is usually stronger than me and can recapture their cities. I send there all my units, have some capture the city and the others pillage to collect the viking points. Also collected some points in the mediterranean, destroying barb ships (workships do count

Also needed all my cities to build a manor house, otherwise some cities would've rebelled - that's something I can't afford here. Actually even managed to build Uppsala shrine in the end

 

[3Miro]

Good review on the Vikings. The ahistoric Viking UHV is the one about Vinland since they never managed to form a permanent settlement. The conquest UHV does cover all the territory historically belonging to the Norse or Normans. The Viking points UHV represents the pillaging of the Vikings and it is a pretty high number (or maybe it is still low in Beta 12).

 

[MariusMR]

It's 30pts in Beta 12.

 

[amrod]

The conquest UHV does cover all the territory historically belonging to the Norse or Normans.

I'm not sure about history now (shall take a look), but I think they actually conquered more territory than in the game now. Now it's only two cities in Britain and one in Ireland, only one in Russia - I'd think there were more. Though as said in another topic, I'm not quite sure how organized they were - those settling in Sicily, British Isles and Kiev etc probably were quite independent? (This could lead to a different type of uhv goals, which would require conquering and settling more cities, but they could be made independent/vassal).

Also, Where Is England? Where is London? Come on, the Vikings had England pay Danegeld to them, there even was a Danish king of England (Kanut was it?) and Londinium was certainly present since ancient times. King Harald defeated the Vikings just before William invaded - but here everything begins only then...

 

[3Miro]

I'm not sure about history now (shall take a look), but I think they actually conquered more territory than in the game now. Now it's only two cities in Britain and one in Ireland, only one in Russia - I'd think there were more. Though as said in another topic, I'm not quite sure how organized they were - those settling in Sicily, British Isles and Kiev etc probably were quite independent? (This could lead to a different type of uhv goals, which would require conquering and settling more cities, but they could be made independent/vassal).

Also, Where Is England? Where is London? Come on, the Vikings had England pay Danegeld to them, there even was a Danish king of England (Kanut was it?) and Londinium was certainly present since ancient times. King Harald defeated the Vikings just before William invaded - but here everything begins only then...

Viking probably had dozens of cities in England, how would you suggest we settle dozens of cities on the small island? Vikings are required to get all the major cities in Scotland, Ireland and England.

London and other capitals get founded on the first turn of the spawning civilization. Very few cities were "founded" during our mod, a settler should be thought of as making an existing city larger rather than settling in the regular sense.

Germany existed as a bunch of independent states, yet we make it one civilization as we cannot make it otherwise. Norse have to get a bunch of cities in the appropriate regions and hold them for a short while.

 

[amrod]

Very few cities were "founded" during our mod, a settler should be thought of as making an existing city larger rather than settling in the regular sense.

All right, I get most of what you say. But the thing about cities is still strange. Vienna also just pops up from settlers in 1282. While - as in the pedia - the austrians were there all along, the date is only a change of rulers. The problem is, that some cities are pre-founded (such as those the Norse need to capture, or Prag, Beograd etc). Seems only the large cities are not pre-founded? Really, it's not very historical when I play with Hungary for several centuries, with absolutely nothing in Austrian lands, and then suddenly they pop up with three settlers and a bunch of heavy cavalry. (It's even worse when the new civ starts with units/tech not discovered by the original/neighbouring civ - this happened in some other rfc-modmods).

 

[amrod]

The ahistoric Viking UHV is the one about Vinland since they never managed to form a permanent settlement.

Oh and for this - in the game you don't have to defend Vinland from angry native Americans, so this quest is too easy. (Not complaining though, as it took several tries to finish the Norse UHV

 

[Opera]

The goal is to complete Vinland; whether you keep it or not is another matter. In fact, since the North America access disappears, it can be assumed you don't keep it

 

[amrod]

To continue a bit on the example of Austria (though this probably should go in another thread).

Historically, Austrian lands were settled for a long time back. Hungary (after settling down and finishing the western raids) has pretty much kept the western borders for most of the time (treaty of 1043 etc). Austrian lands had a German culture and had different rulers (being nominally under the holy roman empire). When the Habsburgs emerged, it was only a change of ruling dynasty - though a big one from later perspective, but not obvious at first. Contrast this with how it happens in RFCE - nothing settled for centuries, then a bunch of settlers and heavy army appears.

Now think about what could've happened if Hungary conquered Austrian regions early on (which is easy in RFCE). Maybe they would have spread Hungarian culture (in Civ terms) to the region around Vienna, maybe Steiermark, but Tyrol and Salzburg would remain a German culture. Then probably only the German culture parts would rebel (and at another date maybe). (Though we also know that multi-cultural parts won't always rebel - see the German cultured parts of Transylvania - hm just what is Hungary's UP in RFCE?).

 

[Opera]

But then it becomes too complicated and intricate. The game is abstract in many ways, this is one of them. All of Europe is already settled by the time the mod starts and yet you don't see cities everywhere because they're not relevant until later.

Solutions exist though: Independent cities or (perhaps better) putting a town or a village or a hamlet on tiles. Though that may push the AI to not found on those tiles to keep the juicy town

 

[3Miro]

Imagine spawning as Austria and then not getting Vienna or half of the eastern part. Then Austria would die pretty much instantly.

The problem with Austria is that they really have only one city in the core area and hence it looks abandoned (except for the town improvement). Austria does get Prague and Salzburg on spawn and both of those live for quite some time before.

The actual European history is way too messy to be accurately represented int he game, we do what we can, but cannot do everything.

 

[Just6040]

How difficult would it be to have a civ instantly flip the city on its spawn tile, rather than razing it, so we can have cities like London early on? Might be too late to change it now, but was this considered early in development?

Something else: are UHVs supposed to be close to each other in difficulty?

For example, the first 2 Ottoman goals are quite difficult since it requires you to conquer several well developed countries, but the third only requires you to conquer 1 province. If the player had the military to do the first 2, the third would be a pushover. Perhaps move the dates back and add something about invading Italy?

 

[3Miro]

How difficult would it be to have a civ instantly flip the city on its spawn tile, rather than razing it, so we can have cities like London early on? Might be too late to change it now, but was this considered early in development?

This would require a lot of changes to the flip mechanics and I don't like making such change at this point. Also, having many pre-build cities does take away from the gameplay by restricting the player on what one can do.

Something else: are UHVs supposed to be close to each other in difficulty?

No.

For example, the first 2 Ottoman goals are quite difficult since it requires you to conquer several well developed countries, but the third only requires you to conquer 1 province. If the player had the military to do the first 2, the third would be a pushover. Perhaps move the dates back and add something about invading Italy?

Some UHV condition and even some Civs would be easy. Others would be very hard. Things should be unique for every civ. This is just like RFC, Egypt is quite easy, while Ethiopia and Maya can be very hard.

 

[amrod]

This would require a lot of changes to the flip mechanics and I don't like making such change at this point. Also, having many pre-build cities does take away from the gameplay by restricting the player on what one can do.

Too bad, I was just thinking about the same solution (of city flipping). Still don't understand though - if they would, say, start not on the city but a neighbouring tile, could they flip the city? And the pre-civ independent city could have strong defenses, so as to keep others from settling there. (Such as keep Hungarians from settling in Wien).