Better Infantry

[zeeter]

I'd like to see more offensive ground units in the game. Wars are won by ground troops. Tanks are great, and historically they are very significant in war, but it is always the ground troops which capture cities and make invasions and such.
What I would like to see is an offensive Infantry unit. Movement of one. When an infantry unit is promoted to veteran they get an increase in attack rating. One more for Elite. And make a rule that Infantry cannot be created as veterans.
Anyway, I also think that armor should not be able to attack cities, move over mountains without roads (even with road they should have a movement of one), and should cost more.
Reasoning: Can a tank column really move into a city and secure land? Sure, by leveling every building that they come accross. The infantry are the people responsible for securing the cities.
The mountain movement is obvious. As for the cost, if they cost more, it may be more cost effective to build less tanks and more infantry.
What I'm saying here is that it shouldn't be a game of moving your tanks around and building infantry only to defend cities.
I had thought that a unique unit for the Americans could be that their Infantry be given a movement of two to represent their almost reckless fast movement in Europe during WWII.

 

[Jimcat]

Um, hello? Infantry as it exists in the current game is a pretty powerful attack unit. It has the same attack strength as Cavalry, making it one of the two most powerful offensive units until tanks come along.

So it's slow. Men can only march so quickly. I think the infantry/artillery/cavalry battles that take place prior to Motorized Transport are a good reflection of how such wars took place in the real world from about 1870 to 1920.

 

[gpsmith]

Be prepared for the huge number of posts on the lines of...

"It isn't a single tank, but a tank battalion, which comprises of tanks, support infantry, support artillery, tanky groupies"

I for one would like to think of the tank as a group of tanks, and you need to provide the infantry as a seperate unit, as well as the artillery.

 

[zeeter]

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Um, hello? Infantry as it exists in the current game is a pretty powerful attack unit. It has the same attack strength as Cavalry, making it one of the two most powerful offensive units until tanks come along.
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I agree that they are comparatively high. However, how many times have you built Infantry over Cavalry as an offensive weapon? It wouldn't make a lot of sense to do so. And my objection isn't to their lack of mobility, it is to thier lack of use. Like most people, I only build infantry for defensive purposes. I'd like to see some incentive to use them offensively.
As you know, the late game is usually just a bunch of tanks running around killing everything.

 

[Jimcat]

Originally posted by zeeter
[B Like most people, I only build infantry for defensive purposes. I'd like to see some incentive to use them offensively.
[/B]

8 attack. 10 defense. What more incentive do you need?

Here are some good offensive things to do with infantry:

* Stack a bunch of infantry with a bunch of artillery. Walk up to an enemy city and pound the stuffing out of its defenders. Attack, take the city, leave a couple of infantry behind and move on.

* Make little groups of two infantry and one artillery. March them to any resource or luxury squares in enemy territory. Plunder the road, then use the cannon to blast away the surrounding roads. Fortify. Laugh.

* Similar to the above, send little groups of one or two infantry along the enemy's road/railroad network, plundering as you go. You'll do a lot of damage before the enemy can attack them all.

Remember that the mission of infantry is to "take and hold ground". That means that their use will be both offensive and defensive. Personally, I have gotten a lot of gain out of their offensive capability.

 

[zeeter]

I supose that I will try these infantry tactics. My only concern is - will the AI work like this as well? I don't like to have unfair advantages on them even if they have them on me. My goal is more to make infantry more prevelant in the game, not to simply use infantry more myself.

 

[Jimcat]

Oh, well, if you're trying to get the AI to not act like a moron, I can't do much to help you there. I've actually seen the AI use the tactics I describe above, but not nearly as often as I do myself.

If you want to see more infantry action and more mobile infantry, I suggest creating a "Motorized Infantry" unit that becomes available with Motorized Transportation. Give it the same attack and defense ratings as regular Infantry but a movement rate of 2. Require oil and rubber. This would represent the truck-borne infantry that the US developed in the last phase of WWII.

 

[zeeter]

How about if I create a new infantry unit and give it a mission of attack? Won't the AI then begin to use it? Maybe I could also raise the shield cost and coin cost of Armor so as to reach some sort of balance that I like.

 

[Dark Sheer]

If you want infantry for offensive its easy. Just go to the editor and check the offensive flag for infantry as well. In my game AI uses both infantry and mech inf for both offensive and defensive all the time.

AI has no problem handling the checking of both offensive and defensive

 

[Optimizer]

The problem with Tanks capturing cities can be solved by removing the Tank's ability to attack, and give it a bombardment rate instead. It would only have a shooting range of 1, so it would not make Artillery obsolete.

Instead of adding Motorized Infantry, one could add a Truck Convoy unit with stats like 0/0/4, Wheeled and able to carry foot units. The only problem here is giving it an AI role.

 

[skywalker]

The mech infantry unit really should be that. Actually, I've already done it - I gave it a4, d10, m4, carry 2, carry foot only, requires Motorized Trnasportation. I boosted Infantry to a12 d16 and I increased Tank attack and defense, I forget how much. Mechanized infantry were first used in World War II, and were (and are) really no more than infantry in a APC or other infantry trnasport. They were needed for the ground troops to keep up with the armor advances.

 

[simwiz2]

if you changed mech inf to a land transport than what can defend against modern armor?

 

[Anglophile]

Zeeter, suggest that you look up the LWC mod on the completed mod packs forum. Lots of extra modern infantry in that mod, including some clearly intended for offensive operations. Can't give you details because I am only in the late second age in my first play through.

 

[Exsanguination]

my only problem is the lack of a upgrade path between calvary/marines. Those are the two heavy offensive soldiers in the game. I think there should be some soldier in between calavry/marine which is to upgradeable to marine, but not upgradable from calvary. Yeah.

 

[Joben]

Originally posted by gpsmith
Be prepared for the huge number of posts on the lines of...

"It isn't a single tank, but a tank battalion, which comprises of tanks, support infantry, support artillery, tanky groupies"

I for one would like to think of the tank as a group of tanks, and you need to provide the infantry as a seperate unit, as well as the artillery.

the view you talk about here seems like to only one that is at all logical to me.
If anyone doesnt agree try this:
Open a city screen, at the top look at the population in numbers,(not the heads)
you will note that it is given as several thousand (if i recal its 1000 ppl per 'face',
or is it 10k? the reason its not in even thousands is because it takes into acount
the amount of stored food. one turn before a city grows it might show a pop uf 1900.)
Now after noting that their are thousands of ppl in your city, build a worker.
the population (both in heads and 'real' numbers will go down) so what
happened? did you kill 999 people to hire one worker? no the worker unit
just represents a work TEAM. The same would logicaly aply to combat units.

(haha id like to see 3 soldiers defend a city of 10,000 ppl )

 

[Joben]

Originally posted by Dark Sheer
If you want infantry for offensive its easy. Just go to the editor and check the offensive flag for infantry as well. In my game AI uses both infantry and mech inf for both offensive and defensive all the time.

AI has no problem handling the checking of both offensive and defensive

thats good to know Dark Sheer.
i just checked to defence flags on a few of the units in the game that had
equal def and attack (like Samuri) and was wondering how the AI would handle it.
I think ill put both flags on a few more units. (like infantry)

 

[sgrig]

Originally posted by skywalker
The mech infantry unit really should be that. Actually, I've already done it - I gave it a4, d10, m4, carry 2, carry foot only, requires Motorized Trnasportation. I boosted Infantry to a12 d16 and I increased Tank attack and defense, I forget how much. Mechanized infantry were first used in World War II, and were (and are) really no more than infantry in a APC or other infantry trnasport. They were needed for the ground troops to keep up with the armor advances.

AFAIK, the mech inf graphics as represented in CivIII is an Infantry Fighting Vehicle, which have been developed in the 60's-70's. The infantry inside doesn't have to dismount, they can fire through special slits in the sides of the vehicle, such vehicles have also formidable weaponry, such a gun, anti-tank rockets etc.

In WWII, most infantry was transported by truck, or half-track armoured vehicles, which indeed were nothing more than an infantry transport. Those vehicles had few weapons attached to them, except maybe a machine-gun or something.

So really using the Mech Inf graphics for a WWII APC is inappropriate, IMO.

I think it would be better leaving the Mech Inf where it is, but instead introducing Motorised Infantry available with Motorised Transportation, which would have the same graphics as normal infantry for attack and defense, but would have Dark Sheer's truck animation for movement. This unit could have the following stats: a8, d10, m2. Similarly a Motorized Artillery unit could be made.

IMO, this would be fairer on the AI than introducing land transport units which would give a great advantage to human player.

Joben: The baseline formula working out the population of a city based on number of citizens heads (N) is

10,000*N*(N+1)/2 + some additional number depensing on number of wheat in the food box.

So this means that size 1 city has a population of 10,000 initially, size 2 city has a population 30,000 initially, size 3 city has population 60,000 initially etc.