Better Reformation: Jesuit Education? or Sacred Sites

[El Caballerion]

In those events when I am going down the Piety path, I find myself wondering which is better to have as a reformation belief. JE lets you buy universities and other science buildings with faith, and SS gives you +2 tourism from religious buildings.

I know the consensus is that JE is perhaps the best, but... I was able to pick both PAGODA and MOSQUES religious beliefs (two religious buildings), so I went with SS, which immediately boost my tourism to +32 (which will get larger and larger as I dominate more cities and buy these religious buildings).

However, I am pouring in over 100 faith a turn (not even yet at Industrial Age) but am barely pulling in 60 gold a turn, so I could really use the benefit of buying science buildings with faith.

Hence, just to be fair in the poll, given that you have chosen TWO religious buildings as your follower faith (Pagoda, Mosque, Cathedral, Monastery), which of these two is more beneficial?

 

[kwidem]

.

 

[Johnpecan]

Jesuit is better in general. Sacred sights is very good but if you're not able to buy many religious buildings its usage is weak. Jesuit is pretty much awesome regardless.

 

[Resipsa]

SS might not have been bad in that instance

 

[z284pwr]

Are you going cultural or science victory. SS could possibly win tourism before you get that far behind in science and well before Apollo

 

[cpm4001]

On the whole, I'd have to say Sacred Sites - Jesuit Education is very, very powerful, but Sacred Sites will give you an amazing boost to extra tourism (especially if you're going wide, of course!) I took it in a Spanish game of mine where I went wide, and found that, when combined with Cathedrals whose Great Work of Art slots are filled, you can win a CV almost ridiculously fast.

 

[kaspergm]

I think the case is SS is more situational but gives you something you can't otherwise get, whereas JE is very universal but on the other hand, you can get those Universities and Public Schools anyway, but shaving off a handful of turns in your major cities obviously can be (very) valuable. I did recently pull off a SS with Pagodas + Monasteries religion and it was pretty massive, I was influential with 2/8 civs by the mid of Renaissance and I was popular with another 2 or 3 civs I think before we even got to pick ideologies.

Obviously SS will be most powerful if you intend to go for CV, but even without that, having a strong tourism influence can be really powerful even if you go for another victory type, because it will boost your ideology and protect you from unhappiness (particularly an issue if you are going wide). So I would say personally, if you have a high faith output and science is not a major concern for you, SS is definitely an interesting and powerful pick.

 

[sendos]

Depends on what victory you are after and your type of empire. I voted sacred sites because it boosts wide empires and is a must for cultural victories, which I think is the 2nd most difficult kind of victory in the game. With my Incan game, it helped me get 1000 tourism.

Jesuit education is only good if you have excellent faith generation. So it sort of favours wide empires because you get more fpt. Or you could hoard lots of faith whilst having a tall empire and then boost your science when you can.

 

[Autoclave]

would you suggest any specific civs for either SS or JE? Byzantium will probably do well with with SS if they manage to grab 3 buildings, which i do doubt that it is possible on higher difficulties however.

 

[joncnunn]

Science is King.
By far Jesuit Education.

Note that the AI also likes Jesuit Education so if you want it, you need to reach Reformation as soon as possible.

 

[Breadsmith]

You pretty much need to plan for SS out of the gate, whereas anyone can use Jesuit.

 

[sendos]

Science is King.
By far Jesuit Education.

Note that the AI also likes Jesuit Education so if you want it, you need to reach Reformation as soon as possible.

Assuming you've founded a religion already. Otherwise, you have to complete the piety tree or unlock reformation and wait until you get 200 .

 

[kaspergm]

Science is King.
By far Jesuit Education.

Note that the AI also likes Jesuit Education so if you want it, you need to reach Reformation as soon as possible.

But really, how much extra science does JE net you? I mean, you still have to pay upkeep for the science buildings that you buy (right?), and if I really want it, I normally find myself in a situation where gold-buying a University in my capital and perhaps even a key secondary city also as soon as it unlocks is very manageable. I'm just asking because it seems sometimes that people who swear to JE do it for almost dogmatic reasons.

 

[RealHuhn]

Going Piety for science bonuses isn't a good idea, in my opinion. Other social policies are simply superior.

Piety screams war due to more happiness and its expansionist nature. The new patch buffed the synergy between conquest and tourism. The earlier you reach familiar status over another civ, the more you can benefit from the new mechanics.

So for me, sacred sites easily.

 

[Arachnofiend]

You pretty much need to plan for SS out of the gate, whereas anyone can use Jesuit.

This is the crux of the matter, really. Sacred Sites will give you a ludicrously fast win time in the most favorable of conditions but bomb terribly everywhere else, while Jesuit Education is always a useful belief to have.

 

[bonafide11]

Sure, science is king, but you can still buy and build the science buildings without spending your faith on them. I'd rather use the faith to buy any great person of my choice.

 

[crusader01]

In 3rd option, I have to say "To the Glory of the Gods".

 

[zukenft]

not picking pagoda/mosque etc belief -> jesuit
picking pagoda/mosque belief -> sacred sites

 

[Cyon]

haven't tried it but Byzantium could have pagoda, mosque and cathedrals (pilgrimage as founder to generate the faith) which world give the 6 tourism per city with sacred sites!

if their bonus belief could have been a reformation one when the could have both JE and SS which would have rocked...

 

[Monthar]

With this change in the fall patch, SS is probably better.

Tourism: Further Benefits from Tourism when Influential with another Civ

Science (from Trade Routes)

• Familiar: +1 Science per trade route
• Popular: +2 Science per trade route
• Influential: +3 Science per trade route
• Dominant: +4 Science per trade route

Diplomacy/Espionage

• Familiar: Just 1 turn to Establish Surveillance in influenced civ's cities
• Popular: Surveillance boost (from above) plus Spies operate at an effective rank 1 level higher than actual rank in influenced civ's allied city states
• Influential: Surveillance boost (from above) plus Spies operate at an effective rank 1 levels higher than actual rank in influenced civ's cities and allied city states
• Dominant: Surveillance boost (from above) plus Spies operate at an effective rank 2 levels higher than actual rank in influenced civ's cities and allied city states

Conquest

• Familiar: -25% reduction in Unrest time and Population loss
• Popular: -50% reduction in Unrest time and Population loss
• Influential: -75% reduction in Unrest time and Population loss
• Dominant: no Unrest time; no Population lost

If there is one AI that's running away with Culture, you should have no problem getting to Influential or even Dominant with all the others fairly quickly.

The great thing about the science boost is even if you're the tech leader, this change means your trade routes keep adding science to you instead of only to them.

Dominant for warmongering would be great with Order's tenet for free courthouses, because you could immediately annex and use those cities.

The diplomacy changes make it easier to coup CS's allies away from the AI.

Now imagine these changes when playing as Venice and the doubled trade routes. That's a lot of science from trade.