Better RoM Discussion: Wonders

[Afforess]

This is the Better RoM Discussion thread for Wonders. Only post about wonders.

List of Overpowered Wonders:

Adam Smiths Trading Company:
Reason: +1 per specialist is too extreme
New Ability: You always have trade routes to all known players, with or w/o open borders.

Encyclopedia:
Reason: All techs that 2 other players have is too powerful
New Ability:Players get all techs learned by half the teams.

If you have a wonder that you think is OP, post it, your reasoning, and if you have an idea for a new ability. Other comments and suggestions are welcome.

 

[Elucidus]

I actuall have a large list of new stuff from my Civ3 mod and wish list, but I have to sort through them first to polish them up. The data is very raw.

 

[Praetyre]

I'd like to see the Encyclopedia project reduced to letting you have techs known to 4-6 players, as it really doesn't fit with the comparative knowledge sharing impact of encyclopedias vs the Internet, nor does it make the Internet any better other than being built twice as fast with fiber optics (and even then, it's 1500 vs 1000 for Encyclopedia). It comes a fair bit earlier in the tech tree, and grants an unrealistic and unbalanced advantage in projects.

I'd also like to see some kind of reverse prereq civic option, one that, for example, means all economies save Planned can build Chain Stores (Why the hell you require a Russian oligarchy-style government to do so is beyond me. There have been Regulated societies like the US and Europe that have them, and there's no reason to assume a Free Market society wouldn't either. Unless it's representative of "public-private partnerships" and whatnot).

 

[generalstaff]

I'd also like to see some kind of reverse prereq civic option, one that, for example, means all economies save Planned can build Chain Stores (Why the hell you require a Russian oligarchy-style government to do so is beyond me. There have been Regulated societies like the US and Europe that have them, and there's no reason to assume a Free Market society wouldn't either. Unless it's representative of "public-private partnerships" and whatnot).

I would hardly consider the US a "Regulated" aka Keynesian economy today (maybe back in the 1950s). Today, the US would be a "Corporatist" economy; my evidence is the bailouts which both Bush and Obama supported.

 

[Praetyre]

Corporatist is stated to be a currently fictional form of government by the Civilopedia, but I, personally, interpreted as a modern Russia-style plutocratic crony capitalist oligarchy, or something like Thatcher's Britain was in terms of class structure. Regardless, what reason is there chain stores wouldn't exist in a Regulated or Free Market country, or even one with Coinage, Slavery or Guilds?

 

[konradcabral]

Despite I'd prefer to exclude AS' Trading Company, I liked very much the new ability you gave it.

I have some wonders that I consider OP, and the same happens to regular buildings and national wonders. Would you change them (after consideration and discussion at the forum) if I made a list?

 

[Afforess]

I have some wonders that I consider OP, and the same happens to regular buildings and national wonders. Would you change them (after consideration and discussion at the forum) if I made a list?

Yes, please do. That's why I created this thread. Regular Buildings are fine to discuss too.

 

[konradcabral]

So, here it is.

Sometime ago I also suggested some nerfings to Zap, and some were implemented, some weren't. I am taking the same standard again, an Excel file. These nerfings, in majority, were based on the principle that the earliest changes are those that have a greater impact (in percentage) in the state of things. Therefore, the more modern changes tend to have lower percentages, even though they are more difficult to reach in terms of knowledge. Kind of similar with the "diminishing returns" idea.

See that I'm enjoying the excuse of the OP wonders and buildings to pass through some changes that has nothing to do with OP, but with realism and personal taste. I hope you guys like it.

 

[Killtech]

So, here it is.

Sometime ago I also suggested some nerfings to Zap, and some were implemented, some weren't. I am taking the same standard again, an Excel file. These nerfings, in majority, were based on the principle that the earliest changes are those that have a greater impact (in percentage) in the state of things. Therefore, the more modern changes tend to have lower percentages, even though they are more difficult to reach in terms of knowledge. Kind of similar with the "diminishing returns" idea.

See that I'm enjoying the excuse of the OP wonders and buildings to pass through some changes that has nothing to do with OP, but with realism and personal taste. I hope you guys like it.

i do agree on the changes on wonders with '+n trade routes in all city'. it's not OP on smaller maps but on the giganic maps RoM has it is - one just have too many cities so the bonus can be excessive together with the many +x% modiferiers.

about changes to and (happiness) bouns: i'll wait with that untill 1.6 has been played enough 'cause Afforess changed the bounes from resources. though giving some of the medical world wonders a global effect might be considered.

about wonders giving free buildings in every city: it's quite good for the early ages but it's not really a benefit later on when you can hurry production with gold (or caravans). so i like your ideas on the eifel tower, SETI and cure of cancer.

the other proposed changes might be more personal tase and i'd rather prefere not to change them much.

 

[Afforess]

So, here it is.

Sometime ago I also suggested some nerfings to Zap, and some were implemented, some weren't. I am taking the same standard again, an Excel file. These nerfings, in majority, were based on the principle that the earliest changes are those that have a greater impact (in percentage) in the state of things. Therefore, the more modern changes tend to have lower percentages, even though they are more difficult to reach in terms of knowledge. Kind of similar with the "diminishing returns" idea.

See that I'm enjoying the excuse of the OP wonders and buildings to pass through some changes that has nothing to do with OP, but with realism and personal taste. I hope you guys like it.

There are a lot of interesting changes there. Some of the changes, like switching some wonders to projects, I really like. The world health boosts are an innovative idea too. But some things, like making culture and science sliders cause unhappiness are a bit biased. Overall, I think most of the changes are good ideas. Some require some SDK work. I'll definitely include some of them in Better RoM's first iteration.

To everyone else, I'd appreciate it if you looked at Konradcabal's list and offered some (if any) suggestions/complains/comments.

 

[Supercheese]

To everyone else, I'd appreciate it if you looked at Konradcabal's list and offered some (if any) suggestions/complains/comments.

Most of the suggestions looked good -- I even quickly incorporated some of the changes by editing my CIV4BuildingInfos.xml!

However, I disagree with the "Unhappiness per x% commerce slider" thingies, as that just seems strange to me. I also wonder why the Convention Center would require a corporation present in the city to build -- I suppose many convention centers are corporate-sponsored, but they are certainly used for many non-corporate purposes.

And if I may go so far as to suggest some changes of my own: give many World Wonders a small +gold% boost with tourism (such as was suggested by Konradcabal for the Eiffel Tower, for example). This makes sense if you think about it, as, say, giving the Great Wall a +10% gold increase with Tourism would reflect the increased revenue from the many tourists it attracts. The same could be done for the Pyramids, Sphinx, Taj Mahal, etc.

 

[Afforess]

And if I may go so far as to suggest some changes of my own: give many World Wonders a small +gold% boost with tourism (such as was suggested by Konradcabal for the Eiffel Tower, for example). This makes sense if you think about it, as, say, giving the Great Wall a +10% gold increase with Tourism would reflect the increased revenue from the many tourists it attracts. The same could be done for the Pyramids, Sphinx, Taj Mahal, etc.

Perhaps +1 ?

A side note, I just added the WorldHappiness, WorldHealth, ProjectHappiness, and ProjectHelp to my 1.60beta SDK, so projects can give health and happiness to all cities or just your own. Then I'll move those suggested wonders out of the wonder list and into projects.

 

[konradcabral]

... like making culture and science sliders cause unhappiness are a bit biased.

These modifiers, which I proposed in Wall Street NW and Global Stock Exchange, are my attempt to emulate some of the unjustified (therefore biased) anger against financial markets and especulation. But these weren't a certainty in my head, so probably you and Supercheese are right about that.

I also wonder why the Convention Center would require a corporation present in the city to build -- I suppose many convention centers are corporate-sponsored, but they are certainly used for many non-corporate purposes.

And if I may go so far as to suggest some changes of my own: give many World Wonders a small +gold% boost with tourism (such as was suggested by Konradcabal for the Eiffel Tower, for example). This makes sense if you think about it, as, say, giving the Great Wall a +10% gold increase with Tourism would reflect the increased revenue from the many tourists it attracts. The same could be done for the Pyramids, Sphinx, Taj Mahal, etc.

About Convention Center: I almost asked to rename it to Private CC, which I imagined being nearer to what it tried to simulate originally, but not a certainty too.

About Tourism, I gave a tourism gold boost JUST for Eiffel Tower because I imagined that it's the most profitable turistic attraction in the world, broadly speaking. Maybe I had imagined it all wrong, and now that I'm thinking about Disneyland I'm thinking I was, but my intention was to avoid a gold turning point (+1000 gold per turn after the tourism discovery), the pre-tourism and the pos-tourism, which wouldn't be realistic at all. But a few more (2 or 3 max) turistic wonders wouldn't be so bad. The alternative to simulate turistic revenues could be a modifier like "+x% gold (or wealth) per x% culture rate".

And finally, thx for reading my file!

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

About Tourism, I gave a tourism gold boost JUST for Eiffel Tower because I imagined that it's the most profitable turistic attraction in the world, broadly speaking. Maybe I had imagined it all wrong, and now that I'm thinking about Disneyland I'm thinking I was, but my intention was to avoid a gold turning point (+1000 gold per turn after the tourism discovery), the pre-tourism and the pos-tourism, which wouldn't be realistic at all. But a few more (2 or 3 max) turistic wonders wouldn't be so bad. The alternative to simulate turistic revenues could be a modifier like "+x% gold (or wealth) per x% culture rate".

And finally, thx for reading my file!

I discovered I still had your old suggestions and I still dislike the changes to the Colossus but have changed my mind on the Moai.

I have always had a problem with Tourism. The first being that wealthy and not so wealthy people have been doing tourist stuff since the ancient era. The Greeks even published books on it! Later eras also had their pilgramages and the grand tour - I always liked the 10th century "viking" grand tour idea myself .

 

[Killtech]

About Tourism, I gave a tourism gold boost JUST for Eiffel Tower because I imagined that it's the most profitable turistic attraction in the world, broadly speaking. Maybe I had imagined it all wrong, and now that I'm thinking about Disneyland I'm thinking I was, but my intention was to avoid a gold turning point (+1000 gold per turn after the tourism discovery), the pre-tourism and the pos-tourism, which wouldn't be realistic at all. But a few more (2 or 3 max) turistic wonders wouldn't be so bad. The alternative to simulate turistic revenues could be a modifier like "+x% gold (or wealth) per x% culture rate".

the + gold idea is generally cool. it would be very good if this could be also applied to obsolate wonders. considering that wonders aren't that frequent i doubt it'll cause a large economy boost. especially when we would consider a static gain like Afforess proposed - though +1 seems a bit few for a great wonder. on the other hand a small(!) percentual bonus (i.e. not higher than 10%) wouldn't be wrong because the additional tourist that come to such locations spent their money not only at the attractions themselfs.

 

[szemek77]

After a quick glimpse I must say that Konradcabal has a lot of interesting ideas. My first comments are:

1. I don't agree with the changes about Collosus and Moai Statues. I like the way they are now. Moai is very useful when you settle on islands. To say more, go ahead and check how many wonders give you any boost in production? Not many I would say. So I think we shouldn't change Moai, but of course this is just me.

2. I think that most important problem with overpowered wonders comes because they give you multiplier without any limits. Please consider if the formula like: "increases sth by 50% but no more than x" would fix some problems.

3. Nice idea about the effect which would apply to the whole world. But - shouldn't we consider a bonus in foreign relations which may come thereby? For example: Cure for Cancer - +2 health in all cities in the world; +2 health in all your cities, +3 relationship with other Civs

4. Taj Mahal - 1 happiness in every city and obsolete by Realism?? I'm sorry, would anybody actually BUILD this anymore? I would leave its effect (starts GA) as it is.

5. Global Stock Exchange - 75% , but only in one city I guess? Still - WOW!

6. The Three Gorges Dam - I would leave unchanged. If playing on a massive continent I would limit to, for example 20x20 square radius (or 25x25).

7. Woman's Suffrage, in my opinion, should cause 10% in all cities, + 2 happiness in all cities and temporarely - 1 happiness in 5 biggest cities of all other civs

 

[Afforess]

After a quick glimpse I must say that Konradcabal has a lot of interesting ideas. My first comments are:

1. I don't agree with the changes about Collosus and Moai Statues. I like the way they are now. Moai is very useful when you settle on islands. To say more, go ahead and check how many wonders give you any boost in production? Not many I would say. So I think we shouldn't change Moai, but of course this is just me.

Agreed. Those were building I disagreed with. Their changes may not make complete sense realistically, but they have had the same attribute for a long time in Civ.

2. I think that most important problem with overpowered wonders comes because they give you multiplier without any limits. Please consider if the formula like: "increases sth by 50% but no more than x" would fix some problems.

Well, the lowered modifiers on a lot of buildings is going to have a cumulative effect on overall gold production. I doubt that needs to be added to compound it.

3. Nice idea about the effect which would apply to the whole world. But - shouldn't we consider a bonus in foreign relations which may come thereby? For example: Cure for Cancer - +2 health in all cities in the world; +2 health in all your cities, +3 relationship with other Civs

Interesting. I used that method for the AI to value those projects. The AI considers it's diplomatic stance to other nations, and lowers the project value if it helps other countries they hate and increases it if it helps friends. A +3 boost is rather large though, don't you think?

4. Taj Mahal - 1 happiness in every city and obsolete by Realism?? I'm sorry, would anybody actually BUILD this anymore? I would leave its effect (starts GA) as it is.

Again, not a building I am going to change. GA are already less powerful in RoM then normal civ.

5. Global Stock Exchange - 75% , but only in one city I guess? Still - WOW!

I have to think about this one, but the fact it gives worldwide trade routes means that all other players are going to get approx a 15% gold boost too....

6. The Three Gorges Dam - I would leave unchanged. If playing on a massive continent I would limit to, for example 20x20 square radius (or 25x25).

Another one that is staying the same.

7. Woman's Suffrage, in my opinion, should cause 10% in all cities, + 2 happiness in all cities and temporarely - 1 happiness in 5 biggest cities of all other civs

Not sure about this one....

 

[szemek77]

Interesting. I used that method for the AI to value those projects. The AI considers it's diplomatic stance to other nations, and lowers the project value if it helps other countries they hate and increases it if it helps friends. A +3 boost is rather large though, don't you think?

What, if you make it temporary?

 

[konradcabral]

About Moai Statues: Dancing Hoskuld gave the same argument of making islands productive, and I respond the same way as before: it's not realistic nor reasonable! A really correct measure would be making the Statues a religious --> artistic --> touristic wonder and create or modify another one to substitute that ability for one-tile islands.

About Colossus: I tried to nerfe it a little bit, because I think it's a little OP and misfunctional, because it was a lighthouse. An imponent one, but ultimately just a lighthouse. Maybe we should go through another path.

About projects and wonders that give diplomatic bonus (and malus too!): I'm all in, specially for Cancer.

About Taj Mahal: I agree. I was very hard with India...

About Global Stock Exchange: IMO this should be the ultimate financial wonder, this was the cause of the 75%. I'm thinking about suggesting an economic modcomp, with some improvements, currently not, or badly, simulated in Civ. Examples: insurance, derivatives, stock exchange itself (creating a Stock Exchange NW and making Wall Street a WW), inflation, etc.. I'm an economist and I think I could give good suggestions about this, what do you think?

About 3G Dam: in my last 50 games, I never built a single power plant, I always beeline plastics and rush 3G Dam, so I'm trying to avoid that. Maybe it is a field to be treated by Power Mod, suggested by Hydromancerx, which I fully support.

 

[civ_king]

About Moai Statues: Dancing Hoskuld gave the same argument of making islands productive, and I respond the same way as before: it's not realistic nor reasonable! A really correct measure would be making the Statues a religious --> artistic --> touristic wonder and create or modify another one to substitute that ability for one-tile islands.

About Colossus: I tried to nerfe it a little bit, because I think it's a little OP and misfunctional, because it was a lighthouse. An imponent one, but ultimately just a lighthouse. Maybe we should go through another path.

About projects and wonders that give diplomatic bonus (and malus too!): I'm all in, specially for Cancer.

About Taj Mahal: I agree. I was very hard with India...

About Global Stock Exchange: IMO this should be the ultimate financial wonder, this was the cause of the 75%. I'm thinking about suggesting an economic modcomp, with some improvements, currently not, or badly, simulated in Civ. Examples: insurance, derivatives, stock exchange itself (creating a Stock Exchange NW and making Wall Street a WW), inflation, etc.. I'm an economist and I think I could give good suggestions about this, what do you think?

About 3G Dam: in my last 50 games, I never built a single power plant, I always beeline plastics and rush 3G Dam, so I'm trying to avoid that. Maybe it is a field to be treated by Power Mod, suggested by Hydromancerx, which I fully support.

so would Communism halt inflation?