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Between Frigate and Destroyer

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Colossian, Dec 31, 2007.

?

Do you like to see something between Frigate and Destroyer?

  1. Yes

    184 vote(s)
    79.7%
  2. No

    47 vote(s)
    20.3%
  1. Colossian

    Colossian Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2005
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    Do you like to see something between Frigate and Destroyer?

    I like to play island map. But.....a bit boring. Naval war is fine but Destroyer(30) are too stong. Even Ironclad(12) is not good.
    Frigate(8) => Ironclad(12) => ?(?) => Destroyer(30)
     

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  2. FatSean

    FatSean Chieftain

    Joined:
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    I prefer the historical accuracy to a smoother increase in unit power.

    Makes you really want to get that destroyer tech and oil!

    Adds excitement.
     
  3. Wolfshanze

    Wolfshanze CFC Historian

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    Wow... this poll is just taylor-made for the Wolfshanze Mod.

    If a Str-8 wooden-hulled Frigate, jumping to a Str-30 Destroyer bothers you in any way shape or form, then you need the Wolfshanze Mod now.

    The same thing bothered me immensley... yes, there's a huge jump and time disparity between the ocean-going Str-8 Frigate and the WWII era Str-30 Destroyer (which comes near the time of the Str-40 WWII Battleship). Yes, there's the mostly-worthless Str-12 Ironclad, but let's remember it's a coastal-only gunboat of little value since it's both slow and heavily restricted to coastal waters...

    So what you get in default Civ4 for ocean going vessels is a Str-8 Frigate, which rules the waves for countless eons it seems, till it's replaced by modern destroyers? WTF is that? Let's not forget transports are a little funny too... going from Spanish Galleons to modern WWII Higgens boat transports? Nothing inbetween?

    In my Wolfshanze Mod that was the main purpose that I set out to fix.

    I categorized naval eras and setup up very specific timeframes with (essentially) one light/fast unit and one slow/heavy unit for each timeframe (think Frigate/SotL or Destroyer/Battleship for my reasoning... keeping it close in-spirit to what Firaxis was doing).

    After Frigates, Ships of the Line and Galleons, this is what I did:

    Age of Steam:
    Ironclad Gunboat (same as default Ironclad... coastal only)
    Ironclad Cruiser (ocean going... light/fast)
    Ironclad Battleship (ocean going... heavy/slow)
    Paddle Steamer (Age of Steam transport)

    Industrial Age:
    Protected Cruiser (light/fast)
    Pre-Dreadnought (heavy/slow)
    Transport (now Liberty Class vessel)

    WWI era:
    Destroyer Escort (light/fast)
    Dreadnought (heavy/slow)

    Getting back to default Civ4, you then finally progress to what we already have...

    WWII era:
    Destroyer (light/fast)
    Battleship (heavy/slow)

    Similar units of equal technology aren't artificially spaced-out either like they are in default Civ4... the same technology makes both destroyers and battleships but they are greatly spaced on the Civ4 tech tree... that's simply not right... in the Wolfshane Mod, once you reach the right requirements for a certain level of naval warfare, you get the heavy and light versions at the same time.

    As one last naval tweak, Submarines now come with Combustion + Electricity... the two main forms of early submarine propulsion, and makes the sub available a little earlier then default Civ4... also the ability to carry missiles has been removed from the world-war era sub and transfered to the nuclear powered "Boomer" subs which come later on the tech tree.

    If the huge gap in naval techs bothers you, that was the focus of my fix in my Wolfshanze Mod.
     
  4. Antilogic

    Antilogic --

    Joined:
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    Okay...that's a little more involved than the fix I was going to post. I always wanted a dreadnought or armored cruiser unit to stick in there, roughly the same speed as a frigate or one movement greater with around 20-24 strength.

    It might be a little much, but the change from sail to steam and then steam to oil is not handled well...there were a lot of failed designs in there, but a few solid ones that developed into future warship staples. The two I mentioned above would be a simpler fix for the naval situation, or you could go for the super mod here.
     
  5. PimpyMicPimp

    PimpyMicPimp Regrets His Username.

    Joined:
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    Regina, Saskatchewan
    Wolf's mod has you covered :)

    However, in the epic game, I think along the lines of Antilogic, especially in regards to the Dreadnought. To get even more complicated, what about Super Dreadnaughts as a national unit? Although the naval system would have to be changed for this to be as cool as I envision it (e.g. navies bombarding land units).
     
  6. SLM

    SLM Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2005
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    Location:
    Belgium
    I think a single non oil based, ocean faring unit between ironclad and destroyer would suffice. It should be around Str 18. The Wolfshanze mod looks great but is (like most mods for me) too much of a change to the original gameplay.
     
  7. Wolfshanze

    Wolfshanze CFC Historian

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    How is it "too much of a change from the original gameplay"?

    I have not added a single new tech to the game... it's seven new naval units (6-combat, 1-transport), all using existing techs and existing resources (you'll get greater mileage out of coal and oil).

    Unlike a lot of mods that throw the kitchen sink at you with 10 or 20 new tech advances and actual gameplay changes, I have done none of that with my mod.

    Technology in my mod advances no faster or slower then what you play out of the box with Civ4... no rules have been changed in my mod compared to Civ4 out of the box. So how is that "too much of a change from original gameplay"?

    I've added two ships to an existing timeline... ocean-going Ironclads. You ALREADY are familiar with the breakthrough to Ironclad technology... you just now get the option of sea-going ironclads... a very real unit in history. How does that dramatically alter the game? Ironclad tech is already there, you just now get to project it to sea like in real history.

    WWII units have been untouched... no differance there.

    The only real change is instead of jumping from ironclads to WWII units you get TWO NEW NAVAL TIMELINES... the Pre-Dreadnought era... and the Dreadnought era. Both come with techs ALREADY IN THE GAME. So once again, how does that drastically change gameplay?

    In default Civ IV, the Ironclad is Strength-12... the Destroyer is strength-30. That's 18-combat points unaccounted for, and the largest jump from any one unit in the game to it's next logical replacement (worse if you consider the ocean-going jump from Str-8 Frigates to Str-30 Destroyers).

    With Pre-Dreadnoughts and Dreadnoughts, I've filled the gap... without changing gameplay or adding new techs. Use them if you want, or bypass them on a race to WWII vessels. If you want to keep sailing around the oceans in Frigates while the computer develops ocean-going Ironclads or Protected Cruisers, that's up to you.

    I hardly see how my filling an 18-point combat gap is a huge change to gameplay when Firaxis managed to cram four horse units in a 9-point combat gap from Horsemen (Str-6) to Cavalry (Str-15).

    I've justified my improvements to the game... SLM, feel free to explain how I've radically altered gameplay. Mine is actually one of the smaller mods to this game with a minimalistic approach compared to what most folks do with adding lots of new techs and changing actual gameplay mechanics.
     
  8. SLM

    SLM Chieftain

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    Don't get me wrong, your mod seems great and I think a lot of players will use or are using them. Maybe I should have added "... for me" in my last sentence, because this is just me, I don't like to play/use mods very much because of the (possible) impact on the original gameplay. In fact, I've only really installed one mod ever and that was a mod adding the Dutch to Vanilla.

    You're saying that your mod doesn't have a big impact on gameplay, but how do you know? Not adding a tech is surely minimizing the possible effects but how do you know the AI will put the extra ships to good use? A person can judge what's best for them in a certain situation but the AI? See my topic on odd AI behaviour, about the AI mass producing caravels when in fact they don't need them and can't effectively use all of them.
     
  9. Woody1

    Woody1 Chieftain

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    Yeah, wolf's mod looks like it introduces too many ships, IMO. A single intermediate ship would suffice.

    Like Spock says in the game, "Engineering is perfected not when there is nothing more to add, but nothing left to take away." (Okay, that's probably not the exact wording.)
     
  10. flytyer

    flytyer Master Fisherman

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    i usually have a very small navy until the destroyer age and then commence to build a very large navy.
     
  11. arstal

    arstal Say No 2 Net Validations

    Joined:
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    771
    The AI in the Wolfshanze mod knows how to use the ships about as well as it does any other ships. Only thing I noticed is it didn't use paddle steamers much, but I play on standard speed, so may not have been time to use them.

    I kinda wish Wolfshanze mod would add some new air promotions, like the ones in Chiyo's mod. It's still one of the better mods out there- with logical changes that improve base gameplay.
     
  12. 6K Man

    6K Man Bureaucrat

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    I hate building large pre-oil navies, just because by the time Destroyers and Battleships become available, I have a bunch of now completely useless Frigates and Ironclads that are very pricey to upgrade. Galleon>Transport isn't too bad, but even that can be costly.

    Damn you, Jacky Fisher.
     
  13. King of Town

    King of Town Adventuring

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    I would like two ships. A dreadnought, and a more modern privateer.
     
  14. Wolfshanze

    Wolfshanze CFC Historian

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    For those that keep saying "too many ships"... or "one would suffice" then the answer is "don't build every ship". How hard is that.

    Each epoch of ships comes at least a couple of techs apart on the tech tree... this allows the OPTION to either build the ships available at your current tech, THEN BRANCH IN A DIFFERANT DIRECTION... OR... skip what is currently available, and PRESS ON TO THE NEXT NAVAL EPOCH.

    The CHOICE is there to accept or not...

    I did not change the core gameplay... I did not add additional techs... if you want to stop in the pre-dreadnought era, then concentrate on other techs, go write ahead... if you want to skip pre-dreadnoughts and press-on to developing dreadnoughts or battleships, then be my guest... nobody in my mod puts a gun to your head and forces you to build scores of each ship in each epoch... the CHOICE is simply there. Take it or leave it.

    Why does having a CHOICE turn people off or scare them away? If you want to build, then build, if you'd rather skip, then skip. Raise your hand if you build 20 of every unit in default Civ4... thought so...

    P.S.
    Oh... and I have seen the AI use all the ships available in various states... Paddle Steamers included.
     
  15. say1988

    say1988 Chieftain

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    My personal preference would be for an ironclad frigate (maybe 15 str) and then another vessel between it and the destroyer. ( BTW am I the only one who finds it a little ironic that the destroyer is such an important vessel in the game, while the vessel it was designed to counter doesn't exist?)
     
  16. Mista

    Mista Chieftain

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    I'm a Navy guy, and like the idea of your mod, Wolf. I will load it and try it tonight. Not onlyi Navy, professionslly, but also a history buff ... wish me luck.
     
  17. kristopherb

    kristopherb Protective/Charismatic

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    There needs to be more naval units Fullstop.
     
  18. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

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    I would really like to see a coal powered Dreadnought.... the 2nd half of the XIX century navy is completly absent of the game
     
  19. Woody1

    Woody1 Chieftain

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    Well, there's the problem. While I don't have to build all the various designs, the AI is going to. Which means, I'd be forced to upgrade to keep pace with the AI.

    It just adds extra micro-management for little benefit. IMO, of course.

    I do think there's one missing ship type between ironclad and destroyer. Something around 18 in strength. But there's not a half-dozen missing types!
     
  20. Wolfshanze

    Wolfshanze CFC Historian

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    It's already in my Wolfshanze Mod. The 2nd half of the 19th Century Navies are all in my mod (ocean going ironclads and pre-dreadnoughts) as well as coal-fired Dreadnoughts.

    Of course... the same goes for Knight (str-10), Cuirassier (str-12) & Cavalry (str-15). You don't have to build all of them either, but the AI may well do so. That's THREE UNITS within a space of 5-combat points in default Civ4. You don't need to build all of them either, but the AI may well do so.

    I've introduced two new ages of naval warfare to the game. Pre-Dreadnought and Dreadnought era, and that's between an 18 point spread, not a 5 point spread... you call me excessive when Civ4 default does it in a 5 point spread?

    You don't want to be "forced" to keep pace with the AI? Sounds to me like you're perfectly happy having Frigates as the only naval units for hundreds of years and not being replaced for 18 combat points worth of progression, when I'll bet you normally upgrade knights to cuirassiers and cuirassiers to cavalry for a mere 5-point gain. Default Civ4 "forces" more upgrades on you then my mod does.

    Why are you playing Civ4 if you don't like a steady logical progression of units... Frigates begat Ironclads which begat Pre-Dreadnoughts which begat Dreadnoughts which begat Battleships. You don't "have" to build every unit in my mod... you can just build Ironclad Battleships and ignore Ironclad Cruisers if you want... or (get this) you could just not build any Ironclads at all. I also love this "force" stuff... like there's a gun to your head. If you don't want to build something... DON'T. If you're happy with a fleet of wooden frigates, maybe the AI would rather build Ironclads to defeat your frigates... that's just the way the world works... either let him sink your fleet, or build ironclads to counter, or out-tech him and build pre-dreadnoughts... you have more options, not less.

    I'm also squeezing two major era ship lines into an 18 point gap... not a 5-point one like default Civ4... and still some folks complain...

    Why play Civ4 at all if you don't want to be bothered to upgrade units... Civ4 "forces" you to upgrade far more often then my mod does.

    You yourself said...
    So you think between 12 and 30 there should be one unit that's twice as close to 12 as it is 30? So you'd go "12/18/30" but not "12/18/24/30". You are also playing a game that introduces ground units at combat values of 2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10,12,15... and you call my mod excessive?

    I didn't add half a dozen units that need to all be built... you're not reading what I say nor are you comprehending the exact similarity my additions mirror to default Civ4.

    I essentially added two missing time-zones... Pre-Dreadnought and Dreadnought... NOT six. I "fleshed-out" the Ironclads... gave them two ocean going units for the same time frame in the spirit of default Civ4... just like default Civ4 does for most of it's naval units (Frigate/SotL, Destroyer/Battleship, Stealth DD/Aegis Cruiser), so I did with my eras... you certainly DO NOT need to build every unit in an era, you only need build the type you need/want for your style of play... light/fast or heavy/slow.

    The fact you state my mod forces you to build six new units means you clearly don't understand one thing about what my mod adds to the game.
     

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