Biden Drops Out

my country saw the spectacle of Democracy being brought to it ... Such people talked so highly of themselves . And just like Trumpists , everything they said about their enemies turned out to be also true for themselves . Only twice as bad . Take care with words that sound like insults . It is like impossible to discuss things , but sure as hell Democrats will not turn out to be peace loving angels . You should have defeated Russia when it was down , instead of being high above the clouds , only thing worth being your internal politics .
 
Yes after all Americans would never create a slave system based on pretend racial hierarchies or exterminate entire nations for lebensraum.
Great use of "lebensraum" BTW... damn near perfect TBH, sadly.

On that note, we "won" the Olympics. USA#1 4eva! 🏅
 
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Sure Purple. And if he gets elected he will end the war in 24 hours.

Oh, he absolutely will end the war... by pulling out of NATO and stopping all weapons shipments. Giving Putin everything he wants totally counts as ending the war, right?
 
Sure Purple. And if he gets elected he will end the war in 24 hours.
It's too late for that now.

So Trump would de facto have dissolved NATO, and withdrawn the US from Europe altogether, at Russian request.

Wouldn't work with anything less.
No, he would have placated Russia by making assurances that Ukraine would not join OTAN and generally making sure not to paint Russia in a corner from which they see war as the only alternative. All the while putting pressure on China so as to drive a wedge between the two. Much in the same way Nixon did, only in reverse.
 
It's too late for that now.


No, he would have placated Russia by making assurances that Ukraine would not join OTAN and generally making sure not to paint Russia in a corner from which they see war as the only alternative. All the while putting pressure on China so as to drive a wedge between the two. Much in the same way Nixon did, only in reverse.
Sure. Because Russia totally invaded because of NATO. Not because of the juicy resources in Ukraine. That's just collateral benefit.

Russia had to go to war you see. They were painted into a corner. Nothing to do with a landgrab which has been going on since 2014.
 
Imagine the following counterfactual, if you will.

Russia and China found a military alliance. But it's only defensive. Of course. Now, they spend the next 70 or so years using that alliance as a structure through which to bomb, invade and destabilize weaker nations on every continent including Europe. But it's only defensive. Purely defensive. They would newer use it to invade others. Ignore the evidence of them doing just that again and again and again.

And than one day, the people of Mexico decide to join that alliance. And next thing you know comrade Xi is touring Tijuana for a place to park a couple tank divisions. But it's purely defensive. Absolutely defensive. No expansionism at all. Surely nobody would ever possibly feel threatened by it.

How do you think the United States would react? Truth is, we just don't and can't ever know.

So say what you want about Russia invading and how it's evil and wrong. And you will be absolutely right.
But let us not pretend that this is anything but a masterfully laid trap that they had no choice but to walk into.
 
But let us not pretend that this is anything but a masterfully laid trap that they had no choice but to walk into.
Complete and utter bollocks.

And when using words like "counterfactual", provide facts. Not imaginary nonsense.

So say what you want about Russia invading and how it's evil and wrong. And you will be absolutely right.
Facts, like: Russia invaded because they want control over Ukraine and it's resources.

Address that fact for a change.

edit: Oh, and now Finland and Sweden have joined, that's also a provocation. Surely they'll be invading Russia anytime now. Right?

Because it's more threatening to make up imaginary invasions instead of addressing the actual invasion. Using the cop-out: Russia had no choice, when they did. They could not have invaded.
It's baffling that Russia is painted as a victim in all of this. "I had no choice your honour, Ukraine was wearing a very short skirt. I just had to invade"
 
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It's too late for that now.


No, he would have placated Russia by making assurances that Ukraine would not join OTAN and generally making sure not to paint Russia in a corner from which they see war as the only alternative. All the while putting pressure on China so as to drive a wedge between the two. Much in the same way Nixon did, only in reverse.
The only way he can guarantee Putin any of it is by the US withdrawing from NATO, and effectively ending it.

Trump is going to have to do exactly what Putin tells him – and the means ending NATO, and leaving all of Europe directly west of Russia to Russia to do as it pleases with.

It's what Putin has demanded. It's the only way to guarantee he gets it.

And the problem is that Putin is reading Trump, and Trump's actions as president, so that he is confident Trump will give him this. It's not Biden that has invited this. It was always Trump, who has been signaling the US will not support allies, and will not maintain its own security interests through alliances. That's great by the Kremelin's standards. That's what they want the US to do. That is what they expect trump will give them.

By Russian count the US is a waning power, and should recognize this. Trump will do that.

You say Trump will placate Russia. Russia also thinks Trump will placate Russia. This is what placating Russia will require.

As long as NATO exists, hypothetically Ukraine could join it sometime in the future. No more NATO, or no more Ukraine, are the only surefire solutions to that. And Russia has been working on the latter, while hoping Trump will give them the former.
 
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it was Obama that came to Ankara , spoke in the Parliament and strictly implied things would change . It was Obama that oversaw the Arab Spring and it turning into a Arab Winter with no nothing anywhere . Our only "consolation" is that had it been Trump , he would mock us in the way he did about that handicapped person , Serge Kovalesky the NYT reporter .

if a memo from the White House could cut the coverage of war because of its likely effects on Elections , eventually leading to far fewer pages to read in some gaming forum , a new memo from a White House can open a lot of resources on who did what for what . Like basically it is going to be the first thing Trump is likely to do . We will then see .
 
Imagine the following counterfactual, if you will.
It is quite easy to make up scenarios to fit your fake reality rather than look at what is actually going on. In one's imagination anything can happen. So what?
 
Complete and utter bollocks.

And when using words like "counterfactual", provide facts. Not imaginary nonsense.
What exactly is nonsense in my claim? I literally described the situation of the Cuban Missile crisis. A thing that actually happened. I just swapped the country names around to make a point. I even gave you a link in the end so as to not confuse the history challenged with too much subtlety.

Facts, like: Russia invaded because they want control over Ukraine and it's resources.

Address that fact for a change.
Assertions presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

edit: Oh, and now Finland and Sweden have joined, that's also a provocation. Surely they'll be invading Russia anytime now. Right?
Unfortunately they would if they could. The sad reality of the fact is that Russia has been making very stupid geopolitical moves ever since the Soviet Union collapsed. They are laboring under the mistaken belief that Russia is still the great power it was back in Soviet times and that therefore it has the same right to rape nations that displease it used to have.

Unfortunately for them those times are over and these days it's just America that has the economic and military power to claim that right for its own. And this fact has been tragically prove at the expense of the Russian nation and Ukrainian people.

Because it's more threatening to make up imaginary invasions instead of addressing the actual invasion. Using the cop-out: Russia had no choice, when they did. They could not have invaded.
It's baffling that Russia is painted as a victim in all of this. "I had no choice your honour, Ukraine was wearing a very short skirt. I just had to invade"
It has nothing to do with honor. Put simply, Russia newer successfully adapted its foreign policy to post Soviet realities. They are still behaving as if they were an important player on the world stage as opposed to basically a third grade power like say France. As a result their geopolitical opponents have managed to easily outmaneuver them at literally every single opportunity.

Their current behavior is basically akin to France deciding Napoleon newer went away and invading all of Europe because clearly it worked the last time.

And instead of learning from their mistakes and adjusting Russia repeatedly doubled down figuring that if they fake it enough people will actually start treating them like a superpower again. And thus they painted them self into a corner from which there was no good extraction. They tried to sit at the adult table and play great power games and lost, hard.

But OTAN was obliging enough to help them get to that corner every step of the way. They did it by destabilizing Russia's traditional allies in the middle east, expanding OTAN to the Russian border, chipping away at its sphere of influence in Europe and generally taking every opportunity to step on Russian toes in order to chip away at its interests, security and prestige.

Say what you want about made up worlds like freedom, truth and justice. But at the end of the day a great power, or a country that fancies it self to be one simply can not ignore things like that. The cost both in terms of prestige and flat out security of having a hostile military alliance sit on your physical border is just too great. This is why America could not ignore Cuba or socialism spreading in their back yard. It is why Russia could not allow the eastern block to perform even the most minimal of sane reforms. It is why North Korea still exists. And sadly it is also what is happening in the Ukraine today.

And unfortunately for the Ukrainians this tragic combination of aggressive pushing from one side and completely mental foreign policy stuck in the 70's from another has resulted in tragic but utterly predictable outcomes. There is literally nobody with any brain who did not see the invasion coming the moment the Maidan coup hit. The only surprise is really that it took this long. Well that, and just how much of an inept paper tiger the Russian military really turned out to be.

The only way he can guarantee Putin any of it is by the US withdrawing from NATO, and effectively ending it.
At this point I am not sure what he could possibly give him. Even if they literally took Kiev tomorrow and annexed all of Ukraine Russia has already lost this war. The cost both in terms of resources and manpower spent, international prestige lost and total collapse of lucrative trade opportunities in the west would render it a Pyrrhic victory.

Even if all of OTAN dissolved Russia would be too weak to capitalize on it. The opportunity for Russia to win this war ended after the initial march on Kiev. Right now the best Putin can hope for is some bone thrown his way to save his face and crown.

But that does not change the fact that the opportunity to preserve peace in europe was lost the moment OTAN started spreading east of East Germany. But not pushing the Ukrainians, one of the only two nations in Europe still at the time on Russias side onto a western path certainly would have at least postponed it.

it was Obama that came to Ankara , spoke in the Parliament and strictly implied things would change . It was Obama that oversaw the Arab Spring and it turning into a Arab Winter with no nothing anywhere . Our only "consolation" is that had it been Trump , he would mock us in the way he did about that handicapped person , Serge Kovalesky the NYT reporter .

if a memo from the White House could cut the coverage of war because of its likely effects on Elections , eventually leading to far fewer pages to read in some gaming forum , a new memo from a White House can open a lot of resources on who did what for what . Like basically it is going to be the first thing Trump is likely to do . We will then see .
The arab spring was the worst most catastrophic thing to happen to the middle east in this century. And it did Europe no good either. The world would have been better off if the west had not kicked that particular bee hive.
 
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