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Big chopping problem

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Kawn, Feb 23, 2006.

  1. Kawn

    Kawn Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2006
    Messages:
    7
    First, i must warning you cause my english is Realy BAD! But there is very few, or none, serious Swedish Civ-forums so i do my best mow:)

    Now to my subject.

    I have read many times on this forum about chopping, and i tried it out myself. It works nice, but just in the beginning.

    My strategy is worker/worker/settler in the beginning on Monarch difficulty and epic gamespeed. (first worker cut second worker then both of my workers cut my first settler)

    I finish BW exctly when my first worker is ready. So far, very nice!

    But quite early in the game, my commerce start to suffer. If you know what i mean? I try to tech Pottery as fast as I can to build cottage and bring som wealth to my nation. But my cities just get angry and unhealthy. And my production dont have a chanse when all focus are on wealth.

    After my third city, the economy is really bad. I want 100 percent on tech all the time, but soon it becomes impossible as well. All AI nations put me down to puny status and it seems impossible to match them into the future:mad:

    I hope you understand my problem:sad:
     
  2. Breunor

    Breunor Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Messages:
    2,388
    Location:
    Earth
    Kawn,

    I think you have the 'monarch is hard' problem. Its the same problem I have!

    Early in the game, chopping keeps you up with the AI. This also happens with me. Later, you just have to be good enough to compete on that level. There isn't a single thing. I'm just making the Prince/Monarch switch and its just hard. There isn't a single strategy here. You just have to be a good player across the board.

    Sorry I can't help any more.

    Best wishes,

    Bruce
     
  3. fbouthil

    fbouthil Occasional Mercenary

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2004
    Messages:
    399
    Location:
    Montreal (Canada)
    As soon as you have 2 cities, you will have some expenses, so you won't be able to keep the research at 100% without a deficit. There is nothing wrong with having a lower research %. 80% of 20 is better than 100% of 12. The important thing is the total number of breaker. You can see that in the financial advisor screen.

    Building cottages on tiles worked by your citizens will increase the number of commerce you are generating but since you have expenses, you will always have a deficit when at 100% research.

    I have gone up to the monarch level pretty easily and I am now trying to go up to emperor level. There are many things you need to change when you increase level and chopping is only a part of it.

    Personnally, I believe starting with a worker is a good idea, but it is usually better to increase the best resources around your capital before chopping forest. I usually let my capital grow a little while I do that and chop forests later. I sometimes keep some forests to build libraries in the cities with the most commerce. I often keep some to chop my first army.

    BTW, when I finish researching alphabet, I often realize I am behind in techs, but the only one with alphabet. By trading anything but alphabet, I usually get ahead in tech. After that, it is time for the first war and I use the money I gain to research code of laws.
     
  4. CaptainEO

    CaptainEO Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2005
    Messages:
    27
    When my research percentage drops below 50%, I take it as a sign that I need to stop expanding for a while... Build cottages, courthouses, banks, etc to build up the economy of your existing cities. When your research gets back in the 70-80% range, you can start thinking about more wars or expansion.
     
  5. Qitai

    Qitai .

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2002
    Messages:
    1,177
    Location:
    SG.MY.TW.US
    You need to start thinking about $$ problem the moment you start your expansion. Before you get pottery, the solution would be to place your cities near/on the same river and use those tiles beside the river. If you see any gold/gem/silver resource, head for it and nevermind this city would not grow. The income from these resources will fuel your other cities.

    Just remember this - each city cost $$ even while it is producing food/production. So, make sure it can generate enough $$ to support itself so that each city is a net contribution to the empire.
     
  6. mucco

    mucco Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2006
    Messages:
    245
    Location:
    Italy (not so sure...)
    Personally i don't think that commerce/wealth/money is very important in the early game, i think land grab is more a priority. The amount of land you have (and the type, of course) determines how much population you will have, so gaining more land without watching economy is my strategy most of the time. The more land, the more population, the more cottages worked, the more research, even if you aren't running 100%. I rarely can afford to keep my slider at 100%, but i get techs faster than other civs on monarch, if i have the biggest country.
    In the early phase i often expand until i hit 0% research, then stop for a while to recover (i barely get currency in this stage), then try the final expansion when i've set up some money improvements like courthouses and markets. After the expansion i'm very backwards in tech, but i'm usually able to catch up and eventually reach the tech lead around the industrial age. Never hitting 100% research, of course.
     
  7. nilsmo

    nilsmo Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2005
    Messages:
    70
    mucco, the problem is that if you expand too quickly, you'll get stuck at 0% research, your units will go on strike, and you won't be anywhere near Code of Laws (you can't get there either).
     
  8. sgrig

    sgrig Comrade

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2001
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    Isaac Newton's College
    With a Philoshophical leader, it's quite easy to get Code of Laws using a Great Prophet from Stonehenge. This will work even if your science rate is 0%. The most important aspect however is to get Alphabet before you reach 0%. This way if you get any techs from GP's you'll be able to trade them for earlier techs.
     
  9. katank

    katank Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2006
    Messages:
    301
    nilsmo, you really act like 0% is a major issue. As long as you managed to hit Code of Laws before 0%, you can chop courthouses and be fine.

    Don't worry about 100% science. Just try to see if adding a new city adds net research. Check in financial screen. At all times, try to be fiscally responsible and not lose more than say 10 gold/turn unless you really need a tech now. So if adding a city results in you lowering your science rate from 40% to 30% to break even but still increases the beakers shown in financial advisor, add the city.

    Land is power. Total ICS REX doesn't work as well in Civ 4 but REX can definitely work.
     
  10. fbouthil

    fbouthil Occasional Mercenary

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2004
    Messages:
    399
    Location:
    Montreal (Canada)
    I disagree partly with Katank.

    A new city will almost always decrease the net amount of commerce (breaker + gold) per turn. You have to determine how long it will take you to make the city a positive contribution. Most of the time, building a courthouse is enough to compensate the commerce loss. That is why many players say you need a forestry task force of a few workers that cut forests to get courthouses built as fast as possible.

    I agree with the rest of what he wrote.
     
  11. Chillaxation

    Chillaxation Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2005
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    Location:
    Los Angeles, California
    Pottery is an essential tech - where you can, to the exclusion of other strategies, build cottages. Believe me, you will almost always out-manufacture the computer, pound for pound. At higher difficulties, the computer will have advantages, but you can overcome even these.
     
  12. mucco

    mucco Warlord

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    Location:
    Italy (not so sure...)
    The key is not expanding more than you can afford. If you hit 0% with a loss of a few gpt it's easy to recover by managing cities, and once your cottages develop (it doesn't take really too long) the science slider WILL go higher.
     
  13. atreas

    atreas King

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2006
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    Greece
    Most probably there should be created a topic "The 100% science disease", that refers to the (usually old civ fans, like me) players who look a lot at this slider. I think it's the first habbit you must learn that you must change in civ4. Maybe it would be more helpful if they substituted it with the GNP indication from the demographics - then it would be even more obvious that this 100%, 90%, 50% or whatever strategy leads nowhere.

    0% isn't terrible, but IT IS an indication that you made your position more difficult than it should have been. Cottages help, but maybe COL with Caste System and some merchands has even more drastic and immediate results, for the "almost hopeless" cases. But the point is that you should create for yourself a goal: for example, "I want to have 10 times more GNP income per turn". I think that you will never achieve it if your mind is on having the science slider always at 100%. IMO, constant early 100% science is an indication of inefficient play and insufficient expansion - I don't know for Monarch, but I assure you that on Emperor and above you will not go far with it.
     

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