Big Difference between Noble and Warlord?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by blitzkrieg1980, Sep 19, 2006.

  1. blitzkrieg1980

    blitzkrieg1980 Octobrist

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    Okay, I've played a bunch of games on warlord setting, and usually I'm in the lead by at least four or five hundred points with a great tech lead and superior military/economy. So I decide, "hey, it's definitely time to move on up."

    So as soon as I move up in level, I'm behind on tech / land with a sickly economy and just enough military keep my butt covered, but definitely not enough to win any sort of war. I lose three times in a row (once space race, twice time), and then decide maybe I'm not ready for Noble.

    When I move back, it's the same warlord game I had last time of me kickin absolute ass. Is there any way to edit the xml to make warlord a little more difficult or make Noble a little easier because I don't enjoy struggling to survive just as much as I don't enjoy total omnipotence.

    Has anyone else noticed this large difference in difficulty from Warlord -> Noble?
     
  2. Slade19

    Slade19 Chieftain

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    Yes I face the same thing.

    On warlord level, I don't have a few hundred points on the guy in second place... I'll typically have more than DOUBLE the points of the guy in second place on the scoreboard.

    So I moved to Noble as well.... and it's a completely different animal quite frankly.

    I will often have a higher SCORE than anyone else... but my power rating is in the tank and I wind up getting targeted in the 1200-1400 AD range by the number two guy and have to scramble to come up with a defense so I can destroy enough of his units to get a peace treaty.

    It also doesn't help that I play very random map settings, and the past half dozen games or so I've had absolutely NO production cities whatsoever.

    Trying to crank out macemen at 7 hammers per turn is not fun. In the end I wind up resorting to drafting, and that REALLY screws up your cities. -3 happiness for something like 30 turns if you draft 2 units.
     
  3. blitzkrieg1980

    blitzkrieg1980 Octobrist

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    Yeah, double the points sounds about right. The last game i played, however, i decided to have great diplomacy with a few powerful civs and so tech traded like mad helping my friends zoom up the tech ladder. I, too, used random map and size generation for my Noble game and ended up being alone on a small island. I guess next time I'll try a Noble game on continents with specific settings. Maybe with tech trading turned off as well. And I'll specialize my cities and tech choice a little more. I justwish there was a difficulty setting between Warlord/Noble.
     
  4. zarakand

    zarakand Prince

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    Keep playing on noble and try experimenting with a few different strategies. I'm in the same boat you guys are except I'm moving up from prince to monarch. I loose 6/10 times on monarch and win every time eaisly on prince.
     
  5. cabert

    cabert Big mouth

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    it's the same thing between every level.

    I played my very first game on chieftain, and won a space race without understanding any subtlities of the game.
    Next game was on noble, and i managed a cultural win in the late game, with still much to learn.
    I tried a prince game and was washed away.
    Back to noble, i experimented a lot, and could pick any leader and win with ease.
    Moving up again to prince, not dying fast, but not wining.
    Had a good deal of "surviving" games at prince, then decided i must be missing something there.
    Went into GotM forum, and read hendrickzoon's spoiler for GotM 2 (prince level). I copied his game best i could (finish score with a domination win was over 60k :) , good enough for me, thouigh hendrickzoon's score for the same game was 200k+).
    Cannot say it was my game, i copied it. But after that i never lost a prince game again!
    After a while, i went up to monarch, and it was the same thing again. Barbs rampaged my second city! How could i win this way?
    5/6 games later, i still barely survived monarch.
    Went back to prince, and found it was really too easy.
    After winning diplo, domination, cultural, time (archipelago), with such ease it wasn't even funny anymore, i went back again to monarch.
    Tried it a new way (cultural with Isabella, waging wars all game long!), and had finally my first win on monarch :)
    Now i can win every game on monarch (well, at least i won my last 5 games, be it on vanilla or warlords with random leaders).
    I'm at the point where i survive on emperor.
    Obviously i'll need to try something else to win there...

    All this to tell you one thing : you don't need an intermediate level, you just need to improve your game.
    Noble isn't hard. Just cottage spam, and you should be fine.
    You don't need an overwhelming army to win a war. You just need to kill enemy units and not lose yours :lol:.

    My suggestion would be to read through some succession games, or the ALC serie. You'll see some advanced strats in action.
     
  6. - Praetorian -

    - Praetorian - Chieftain

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    Cabert is right. You need to keep trying on the next level and ultimately if you persevere you will prevail.

    I actually felt that there was a difficuly gap when shifting from Monarch to Emperor level but in the end I managed to win on that level as well.
     
  7. blitzkrieg1980

    blitzkrieg1980 Octobrist

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    ^^ Good call. I'm gonna try different speed/size settings and turning off/on tech trading. we'll see how it flies tonight. I need a good start position. Any suggestions for the Noble setting as to leader selection? (i like warring!)
     
  8. Joebasalt13

    Joebasalt13 Warlord

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    Exactly what the other guy above said try different strategys and different game types I usually play on Noble (It is competitive but I win 80% of time) then when I move up to either Monarchy, Prince or LOL Deity once I get massacred. Try different setups I like the challenge of picking random civs not random but I don't pick same civ every game I try to switch every game.!
     
  9. Underdawg

    Underdawg King

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    Score is not everything. Just becasue at the outset of 0AD you are behind by some even 200 points which is 20% of the leader at 0AD, do not fret. I play on Monarch and I do not get the lead sometimes even until the beginning of the Space Race. But usually I become a serious power around the late middle ages or the beginning of the industrial age when your production power beats the AI's due to your superior tile development and organization/specialization. I am usually behind in tech until just about the modern age. I play on Monarch Large 14 AI Fractals. I used to feel like you guys, where if I wasn't a power in 500AD I lost all hope but its not like that. :)
     
  10. shmily_dana

    shmily_dana Warlord

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    I want to move up to nobel also. I win consistantly on Warlord by domination and reach the "Augustus Ceasar" score threshold. (I play fractal, 6 or 7 opponents, epic, what ever map size defaults to 6 opponents)

    My question is, what are the pre-requestite(s) to move up to noble. Do I need to be able to employ certain stratagies. (Cottage spam is specifically mentioned in this thread.)
     
  11. Meatbuster

    Meatbuster formerly Robo Kai

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    There aren't any pre-req's, just try it.

    Basically the more you move up in difficulty levels, the less "mistakes" you can make. "Mistakes" like building a library in a high-production city when you can spend that time building an army or a forge.

    Like cabert, I would suggest reading through the Succession Games forums... or on the other extreme, even creating your own Noble-level succession game.

    I started Civ4 playing Noble and only started winning since my 6-8th game, just try until you succeeed.
     
  12. Sandman2012

    Sandman2012 Chieftain

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    Your whole post is filled with good advice. I've quoted this because it sums it up nicely. :up:

    I'm just making the jump from Noble to Prince and found it difficult at first. But it's great to have a challenge - I was getting bored at Noble. What I do when I jump a level is to try tiny and small maps at first. Gives me a sense of the pacing of the level, but I don't have to keep track of as many diplomatic relationships. Then as my game improves I move up to larger maps.

    Also, turning off the combat animations and turning on quick moves makes warring a lot less tedious (I just figured this out :o ).
     
  13. drkodos

    drkodos Emperor

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    Excellent point and well stated.

    I think we are so conditioned to think of scoring, in almost all games, as the absolute barometer of success. No doubt, the scoring system in CIV is not that. It really only reflects a fraction of the components that go into a winning game (unless one is going strictly for a time victory!).

    Now, be that as it may, I still tend to allow the score to control my visceral responses in too many game situations.
     
  14. floppymoose

    floppymoose Warlord

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    here's what to do if you want an intermediate level:
    cheat

    For example,look at the map first in worldbuilder, and give yourself a vital resource. Or change a leader to have your favorite traits.

    Eventually you will get more confortable with the pace of AI development at the new level, and you won't need the crutches. Then you can play that level for real.

    I'm sure someone is horrified by this suggestion, but there is nothing about that isn't just an approximation of having an intermediate level.
     
  15. blitzkrieg1980

    blitzkrieg1980 Octobrist

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    Thanks for all the great advice everyone. One more thing, tho: What are the scoring requisites for the screen that shows how you rank amongst famous world leaders (I'm Ethelred the Unready too often and I wish to be Augustus Caesar!)? In my last warlord level game I had the most culture, the best military, the largest land mass AND population, as well as four religions under my belt and the best approval/health rating. The surviving AI's (because I took out 4 of them) all had mostly friendly relations and a couple pleased. How was I "ethelred the unready"? What are the qualifications for Augustus Caesar?
     
  16. Meatbuster

    Meatbuster formerly Robo Kai

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    You just need 15000 points. If you beat the game late, you'll have a lower score. Higher difficulty also means higher scores.
     
  17. cabert

    cabert Big mouth

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    final score is about :
    - population (!)
    - winning date (early is better, obviously)
    - wonders
    - techs

    The first 2 are really dominant, so don't postpone the win to get another tech or wonder.

    Blitzkrieg, i'm pretty sure you could use a good "fix my trash game" SG ;).
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=180876

    Basically, for each level of difficulty you must accept more risks, since you'll be in a less dominant (on emperor, you won't be dominant at all!) situation.
    SO, you need more land on higher difficulties, because you need more commerce and production.
    But the higher the difficulty, the more maintenance is costing = you need more and more commerce cities = cottage spam or specialists.

    + what size of map do you play?
    larger maps are far more difficult IMHO. I started winning on Prince when i went for standard size maps. It was simply impossible fpr me to dominate the huge maps.
     
  18. BlackJAC

    BlackJAC Prince

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    Maybe that's where you're going wrong - not having enough troops. When moving up the levels you should always start out playing it safe ie having enough troops at all times, thus eliminating the need for drafting. Once you get a feel for the level, then you can start thinking of different strategies. Unless the AI comes at you very early there shouldn't be any reason why you have to use the draft option or slavery option on 'Noble' (I know it's not available early, but it's the principle). You should never leave yourself open for attack. Believe it or not that could be where the problem lies, you being too weak to defend and the AI, more often than not, will attack you.

    Forget building uni's or markets in every town as that's just wasting hammers that would be better spent building up your defences. On the lower levels I just believe you've already lost the game if you have to rely on drafting as to save your bacon
     
  19. Slade19

    Slade19 Chieftain

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    Yeah I'm conceding to that.

    I'm an old school civer. 2 units per city was enough unless you want to wipe someone off the map!

    That game was the first time I've EVER been attacked without warning by another Civ. And I'll be the first to admit it was probably because I had 2 warriors guarding my capital, maybe an archer or two in my outlying cities.

    A favorite strategy of mine is to rush to get the Pyramids/Great wall at all costs, and then use those 2 HUGE benefits to go into passive super-commerce mode and just out tech everyone. Since I have the great wall, Barbarians are a non issue which is why I essentially leave myself undefended. Somewhere around 1700 or so, I'll be SO far ahead in the tech tree that whatever military unit I do have access to is going to have a 3:1 or better str score against most defenders and I can then have my way with the planet.

    This is the first time that didn't work. It was actually quite sad... the guy attacks me with horse archers and axemen and whatnot. I had access to mid-tier gunpowder units but because I didn't have ANY production cities available to me, I had to draft to defend myself. =/

    The only city with any production was my capital (obviously). Unfortunately, because of the overall crappiness of my location, it was just too far away to be of any real use. Even with roads all over the place, it took 6+ turns for units to get from the only production city to the front line.

    EDIT: Moral of the story? Listen to the guy above me and BUILD UNITS on higher difficulties!
     
  20. jimbob27

    jimbob27 Emperor

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    I don't think persisting with noble is nessesarily the best thing to do. You can quite easily make an intermediate difficulty just using the custom game options.


    What I would do, is play another warlord game, but this time change a bunch of settings to ones you're not used to. Play as a leader who doesn't have any of your favorite traits, on a map type you're not used to, and enable agressive AI, raging barbs and permanent alliances. If you're a warmonger then try and get an early conquest on an archipelago. If you're a builder, try for a cultural win on pangea.

    That should make for a much harder game (don't make PA's yourself as they make things easier, just have it on so the AI can team up against you). If you can beat warlord with any settings, then it's time for you to step up, but if you get challenged on warlord with special settings, then I'd say stick with that for a while.

    Half the problem with civ is getting good at setting up games. Ideally you want a game where you're challenged all throughout history, but manage to win eventually. Its a skill in itself to be able to judge your own ability, and then use the options to set up a game to challenge you. When you get it right, you get loads of experience and improve 10x more than when you win easily or get your arse kicked.
     

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