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Bigger map size / more than 7 civs

Discussion in 'Civ1 - General Discussions' started by monamipierrot, Dec 7, 2010.

  1. monamipierrot

    monamipierrot Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    11
    Hello all,
    I wondered if it there's ANY chance in changing these fixed limitations in Civ1 (DosCiv, WinCiv or CivNet):
    - the map size
    - only 7 civs allowed.
    These are in my opinion the main "thumbs down" of Civ1, not counting, of course, the AI.
     
  2. monamipierrot

    monamipierrot Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    11
    I read somewhere that Meier thought of Civ1 much bigger than it eventually was decided.
    For many reasons, I would find rather ok to play Civ1 with a double size: double number of civilizations (something like 14) and double the size of map, both x and y axis (a 160x100 squares map).
    This would allow an average double space for each player at the beginning of the game.
    At present state, an average emperor game for a experienced player against CPUs see a contemporary age dominated by 1, 2 or - fewer times - 3 supersuperpowers which have already annihilated most opponents (and still with a pop size of about a few millions people each).
    One of the goals of a new civ scale is to have at least 3 (but better 4, 5 or more), powers or superpowers (each with tens of millions of people) that balance world military and economics through wars and strategic alliances.
    The known relationship between crowdness and technology level (which otherwise could generate a contemporary age in 1500AD) could be balanced by the strategical need to expand and continuous warfare in such a big and crowdy planet, but I would not think at this things like a problem.
    The fact that we could grow a relatively average sized empire with maybe 30 cities and dozens of units of the same type could be a awful scenery for those like me who hate micromanagement. But you know, micromanagement is for when things go bad and you only own 10 or less cities. For your huge 50 cities empire you may afford the costs of not being "always there".
    The main issue would ebe technical one: if one can hack civilization for having it working with such sizes, will be the AI still be ok for handling it, both in size and in new tactical complexity? I doubt of this, and it would result in a frustrating single player experience.
    But even if the AI could handle the changing, it would not handle the new diplomatic strategic and geopolitical complexity - again, frustrating because I could not make the romans understand that to unite against the Aztecs is the only way for both of us to survive.
    If we can play against friends, the main point would turn to be in having the maximum number of friends in the game, namingly more than 3: lucky if you can.
    So, the most important part (geopolitical complexity) seems to be impossible to achieve.
    But still we can imagine that from 2 of the most important sides of Civilization experience things cannot but become better and better. I'm referring to the exploration/empire growing size and to the military side.
    In the explore/grow side the availability of great continents and a number of islands, oceans, inner or mediterraenean seas should give you a lot time for enjoying your big sized earth. Inner cities can grow with no fear till there are bombers out there, and you will concentrate entire armies near the borders. In the modern era you can still "discover" americas and still found there the most important part of your anglo-saxon civilization, after killing some indians, of course.
    On the military side, only great news. Just speaking of the 20th century, you can imagine a "1st world war scenario" in which square by square you try to hold and conquer a minor neighbour's city. Or some years later a "Pacific war" scenario with massive naval/air battles including dozens of units, bloody ground battles for the possession of tiny islands and lot of strategy; or a Normandy invasion with long-thinked planning but enormous losses just to get to Berlin before the Russian.

    This is the dream. The main question is: is it possible to achieve?
     
  3. hannurabi

    hannurabi Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2005
    Messages:
    173
    Something like this is my dream too. It's possible, but unlikely to happen. Easiest way would be reprogramming the whole game, which isn't that hard actually (except if you want the AI to be any good).It depends if we have a programmer here who is big civ1 fan and is determined enough to start and finish such a project.

    I used to try to do this myself few times, but never got too far for various reasons( got frustrated with the code I had produced / got bored / had to concentrate on other things )

    I attach here something I did about half year ago, maybe it inspires someone to create a game we want to play :)

    NOTE: this is very unfinished, has no AI of anykind, has many bugs, missing features, some weird things etc. Also it's a dead project as I haven't been really interested of civ lately.

    e: iirc you have to use home/pgup/pgdown/end buttons to move diagonally, i coded this with laptop. not that it's important anyway as there is no much to play, just finding cities and exploring.Also it seems the default unit in production is trireme. I guess i had some testing going there, now I couldn't get my code even to compile....yea I'm definately not gonna continue this program.If I ever get into civcloning again I'll start from the scratch.

    EDIT: see few post below for new version
     
  4. monamipierrot

    monamipierrot Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    11
    Wow, it seems to work, although the graphic is messed up in my XP so I can't get the City dialog work properly.
    But this demonstrate it's not difficoult to produce a clone of Civ1 from scratch, at least from you!!!
    I read that the Civ1 AI is rather impossible clone.
    Well, not a great loss, in my opinion, if one can produce another AI of equal "smartness" (or better). As I already told, AI was the BIGGEST issue in Civ1.
    But I have NO idea of how difficuolt is to develop an AI from scratch and given rules, so for what I know it could range from very easy to almost impossible.
    Do you know if someone can?
    What do you think about the Freeciv project? Are they still obsessed by Civ2 or is it possible to effectively downgrade gameplay to the glorious Civ1?
    Thanks.
     
  5. C1v1l1z@t10n

    C1v1l1z@t10n Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2004
    Messages:
    83
    Location:
    France
  6. FaLiar

    FaLiar Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2010
    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Tihany
    freeciv is much different, but if i waited that long, i think i can wait more... maybe someday somebody finish this "little" project...
     
  7. hannurabi

    hannurabi Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2005
    Messages:
    173
    Freeciv even in Civ1 ruleset doesn't just feel right. Maybe if it is possible to import CivDOS graphics in it...

    Anyway, I couldn't help myself, I had to continue my CivClone project. Now it's little more playable including very simple AI. My first steps at programming AI, so it really doesn't give much challenge to experienced player. Often the AI fails to do anything useful.
    This clone is still missing whole lot of features but it's certainly better than the last incarnation.
    There seems to be crash sometimes, so if someone tries this and experiences program crashing, I'd like to know what was happening when it crashed.

    some hints:
    press "t" to set Tax Rate
    press "c" to reveal whole map
    mousewheel to zoom map in and out

    Should work on WinXP and higher, although my test on XP had some graphics bugs.

    EDIT: removed file, cause it crashes so often. Although I have already fixed crashing problems, improved AI little and added stuff like governments, there's till so much to do before it's really playable. I'll upload working version when (if) it's done.
     
  8. Imitation

    Imitation Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1
    I'll check this out when I get home tonight. I would love to be able to get a version of CivNet up and running that actually worked over the net. That would be sick, but for now this is definitely an interesting concept.
     
  9. hannurabi

    hannurabi Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2005
    Messages:
    173
    But doesn't CivNet work over the Net?At least I played it over TCP/IP last July with 1 guy from thousands kilometres away, and it was fun. OK , there were few bugs... but it still was playable.

    About this clone it's strictly designed for single player.Multiplayer Civ1Clone would be sick like you said, but that's quite a big project that. And the audience is very small.
    Anyway,it seems that version 2 posts above crashes quite often actually.
    I managed to fix 1 reason for crash, but there seems to be more. I'll upload new version when I have fixed the problems and added tons of new stuff.
     
  10. Volcanon

    Volcanon Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Messages:
    255
    FreeCiv was extremely unstable when I played it, to the point where it was unplayable. This was on several computers over three or four tries with the "latest version". Both Mac and PC.
     
  11. hannurabi

    hannurabi Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2005
    Messages:
    173
    Are you sure you you tried latest stable version of FreeCiv.? Alpha versions may have problems.The little I have played FreeCiv it has worked just fine.But I just don't like it much.Maybe it's more designed towards multiplayer.
     
  12. Bussunda

    Bussunda Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    PANTANAL - BRASIL
    increase the teams in the game would have to change the colors change everything
    finally change the entire game programming. ... all the same
     
  13. InnateGamer

    InnateGamer Emperor+2

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2011
    Messages:
    48
    Back to the OP, I think that doubling the dimension of civ, in fact quadrupling the number of tiles, would make games take way too long time. There could easily be 70 cities on the earth map, if you had a big empire maybe you had 30 cities, that took a lot of time. And I don't think that making the world bigger would prevent civilizations from killing each other and one power becoming really big. I think better AI would solve the problem of often arriving in the modern ages without anyone of significance left to fight with. Also perhaps the map generator could generate continents that are further apart.

    But I do think it should be possible to choose the world size.

    As for freeciv, i don't know, I've played it but it doesn't seem the AI is that smart. Maybe I didn't play it enough. I'm trying to implement a turn based strategy myself, with better AI, that's why I started the project because I wasn't satisfied with the AI. But I'm currently struggling with the terrain generator, I have failed to produce interesting looking results with the algorithm I used before, basically it was about "seeding" the world with seeds and grow various kinds of terrain out of that. I think I'm going to try something that produces a height field, or some other type of float value. I wonder what a map of perlin noise, and set all tiles above a certain treashold to land, would look like. I want to produce terrain that looks a little bit like earth.
     

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