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Biggest World Map possible for TOT and Gold?

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Scenario Creation' started by Konig15, Nov 25, 2019.

  1. Konig15

    Konig15 Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2007
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    I'm wondering what the possibilities for the largest world maps are, especially in the context of TOTPP. I'm also wondering if they exist? Cause there are a lot of scenarios that might be worth remaking if I had a substantially larger world map to worth with.

    And I guess also, is there someone who likes making maps who I could pitch a concept to and they might say...hey, I can do that! Cause it if someone could take the Fading Lights map and just expand it to cover the area od the Kommeni map, It could leave room for SO MANY scenarios.

    But I need to know what's possible before I can dream.
     
  2. JPetroski

    JPetroski Deity

    Joined:
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    I think it is an area of some 37,200 and some change. I believe the giga world map (the one @CurtSibling 's Imperialism 3 uses) is about as large as it can get.

    You could of course multiply that by 4 as ToT allows up to four maps, and lua allows for a much more natural progression from map to map than the base game.

    Making maps is a very time consuming process and with the community as small as it is you would likely have trouble finding someone to make one for you. There are some guides about how to make them yourself available but I'm on my phone and would have to link them later for you if you're interested.

    Edit - here:

    http://civ2.mercator.fastmail.fm.user.fm/reference/mapmaking.html
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2019
  3. Buck2005

    Buck2005 Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
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    341
    You can use any map from the scenarios with a simple manipulatio:
    1). Run the scenarios.
    2). Make a save game.
    3). Run the saved file through the map editor. You can make any changes to the map, or not do so - at your discretion.
    4). Save this file in the map editor. he will get the * .mp extension (theoretically, you can simply rename the saved file from step 2., but sometimes there will be errors, so it’s more reliable to do the whole procedure through the map editor).
    5). You can start a new game on this ****. mp map of yours through the "premade world" option and create your own scenarios.

    This procedure will work for most maps from the MGE and TOTPP scenarios (with the slight exception of some new TOTPP scenarios that use an additional +5 types of terrain). You can also create your own author’s map from scratch. As JPetroski correctly said, this is a laborious process. But technically - there is nothing complicated in it. That is why, hardly anyone wants to do this for you.

    For example, here is a map from a scenario Fading Lights that I saved using this procedure:
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Konig15

    Konig15 Warlord

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    Just to confirm, that 37,200 is what: ToTPP, ToT regular or Gold, or all three of them? The other thing is unless TOTPP has changed this (please say you have!) all the maps have to be exactly the same size.

    Is there a way to take map parts and expand them. I'm talking about being able to copy portion of one map and paste them on another or use the map editor to add dimensions on chosen sides, creating ocean that can be filled it?

    Are there map tools where you can plaster terrain all over the map, except for terrain you designate? I tried to make a Fallout scenario once but failed because while I need to make all the grassland into plains, plains being the wasteland features, I didn’t want to touch the swamps and the mountains and hills, just the grasslands. Also if there are more terrain types,. how can I load those maps into the map editor without a crash?.
     
  5. Knighttime

    Knighttime Warlord

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    I believe the limit is actually 32,767 tiles, in both MGE and ToT. (In FW and older versions, it's apparently only 10,922.) Note that for MGE I use CIV2UIA and for ToT I use TOTPP, and I would highly recommend both of those programs. I'm honestly not sure about the native (unpatched) limits in each Civ version.

    If you're referring to the four maps that JPetroski mentioned:
    ... then yes, they are all the same size. But of course you could use a smaller portion of any of them... each map supports its own terrain definitions and graphics, and you could make an impassable terrain and use it to cover as much of a map as you'd like to make it inaccessible.

    ToT intends these to be "stacked" maps -- picture them in (up to) four layers, one above the other, not placed end-to-end. As JPetroski said, it's possible for a Lua script to allow units to move "across" the maps horizontally, e.g., from the right edge of one map to the left edge of another. But I doubt the AI would understand how to take advantage of this, so they won't necessarily send their units "towards" another map like you might wish. Don't count on being able to stitch maps together side-by-side unless you can verify, by thorough testing, that units behave the way you want.

    Not with the map editor, AFAIK. With TOTPP, it would be possible to create a Lua script that would back up a map to text though -- basically creating a table with the terrain type of each tile. Then you create a new larger map, and use a second Lua script to read in that table and overwrite the correct portion of the new map. You'd have to write the Lua script to support "offsets" so the proper portion of the new map is replaced. Then you could manually edit the edge(s), i.e., the expanded area. Note that Lua scripts only run in the game itself, not the map editor, so if you want to use the map editor you'd have to bounce between tools.

    One shortcoming of Lua scripts, though, is that while they can tell whether a tile has a river, they can't add or remove a river from a tile (at least in the current version of TOTPP, 15.1).

    A Lua script (again, TOTPP only) could easily "search and replace" one terrain type with another, if that would be helpful. The map editor itself is pretty limited.

    The map editor will only support 11 terrain types (10 land and 1 water), but if you edit the base rules.txt and terrain*.gif files, you could customize their names and graphics. TOTPP supports an additional 5 land terrain types, but you would have to place/edit them in "cheat mode" within the game itself, not the separate map editor.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
  6. JPetroski

    JPetroski Deity

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    Thank you - knew I messed something up :)

    I don't see why it would be any more difficult to get the AI to "use" this than it already is to get the moveUnit command to work. But at the same time I think you'd have to use a lua trigger to move the unit from one map to the other rather than hoping they'll native transport or use a transport location reliably. I think the big challenge is what trigger to use. I'm considering using an afterProduction event that basically searches for a type of unit (in my case, a freighter) owned by specific civs (USA and Britain) along a "box" (in my case, the far eastern edge of the USA map) and then moves them to a corresponding box on the western edge of the Europe map. I suppose my system wouldn't work very well for two-way traffic though I suppose a "checkerboard" or "funnel zone" could achieve it reasonably well.

    In any event, I think there are enough different ways to resolve this that I'm reasonably confident planning an entire scenario around it :)

    The nice thing about lua is the phrase, "We'll figure it out" can be a mantra. With macro.txt things are well-figured by now and many of them are figured impossible.
     
  7. Konig15

    Konig15 Warlord

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    Now that I have TotPP working, I've seen the imperialism 3 map and it's huge. Good. Question is, is it as large or bigger than the one for La Belle Epoch for MGE? I want to use the largest map possible. Le Belle Epoch map is 144X227, so it can't get much bigger, but I can't load it into civmap, which makes a direct comparison impossible. Is there another tool I could use to open up the maps/ Possibly resize them as well? If I'm gonna do a Worldwar game I'm making it STUPIDLY ambitious, which means I want the Venus and possibly the Moon map from Escape from Sol, but I'd need to resize. I think
     
  8. Konig15

    Konig15 Warlord

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    Have you seen the Blood ans Sieges Map? Editor says it's 32,~~~ like you said but the map coordinates are 287 and 226, with a 0,0 making tha mp at least twice that big. Or am I missing something very profound here?
     
  9. Knighttime

    Knighttime Warlord

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    Map tiles always have an X and Y coordinate that add up to an even number. Across the top row of the map (Y = 0) the X coordinates are only evens: 0,0 then 2,0 then 4,0 etc. On the next row (Y = 1) the X coordinates are only odds: 1,1 then 3,1 then 5,1 etc. So the total tiles on a map turns out to be Xmax * Ymax / 2.
     
    Konig15 likes this.
  10. Konig15

    Konig15 Warlord

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    KEWL. Thank you for telling me that!
     

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