Bin Laden - not only in the US

[G-Man]

I know, I know, now that Bin Laden attacked you, my tiny little country is not important any more.<br />Well, just so you all know, Usama "I love NY" Bin Laden has decided to follow Saddam "I love me" Hussain's way, and attack Israel in response to what the US is doing. Since tuesday there were over 150 (!) Attacks on Israel, almost all by the Bin Laden supported Hamas.<br />And if that's not enough, now the US says we can't attack him, because they wanna have Arab nations. They could bring together India and Pakistan, but won't allow us to fight our attacker. Let us fight - we're hurt by Bin Laden to!

[ September 16, 2001: Message edited by: G-Man ]</p>

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

I heard nothing of that.Then again ,i didn't hear a lot of news about israel these days.Can you give a source about that? (btw please not in hebrew)<br />And can you give me some general information about the situation in Israel right now (for ex. what happens in he palestine terretories?)<br />If it's true what you said (and i do not doubt that) then i wanna know more about that.

 

[G-Man]

I saw it on the Israeli channel 2 news, so I can't give you any information, not even in hebrew.<br />The situation here is very bad. Last night a Palestinian shot dead an Israeli in north Jerusalem. In retaliation the IDF entered Rammalah and arrested wanted Palestinians that appearantly planned the attack.<br />The IDF is also still in Jenin, after the bombing in a Nahariyah train station last sunday.<br />Israel says we won't withdraw untill Arafat promise not to launch anymore suicide bombers.<br /><start of cycle of violence><br />Arafat says he'll continue to fight untill Israel will withdraw from the entire west bank.<br />Israel says we'll only withdraw as part of a peace agreement.<br />Arafat wants to discuss the peace agreement now.<br />Israel says we won't discuss peace agreements untill there's a cease fire.<br /><end of cycle of violence. return to the start and read all over again.>

 

[SunTzu]

I haven't heard anything about Israel being attacked. And i've been watching the news A LOT this week <img src="icon12.gif" border="0"> <br />I think we should let Israel retailiate against the Hamas and Palestine. You know palestine had something to do with the attacks.<br />All we really need in the area of Arab States is Saudi Arabia, which will stay with us even if you retailiate. Pakistan would still let us use their space, cause i don't believe they're an Arab Country. If we can't use Pakistan, just use the border of the former Russian states to the north of Afghanistan. And also paradrop the Airborne divisions in Rebel held, north Afghanistan.

 

[G-Man]

Well, I've got some good news. That feels strange. All these bad news. Well, here it is:<br />(Drums, please)<br />Ben Eliezer, Israeli minister of defence, said that sorces in the PA are reporting that Arafat gave his people an order to cease fire.

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

It's for the best.Now let hope that a peace agreement can come from this.The event's in Israel has shown importance for the western world.

 

[G-Man]

Alright, now O'm angry!!!! Powel just said Israel can't joni the anti-terror coalition! What happened? Suddenly you listen to those Muslim racists, not wanting us to help fight Iraq and Afghanistan because Israel has muslim enemies. After that people are surprised that muslims in pther countries are attacked (I'm not supporting it, ofcource, but if all muslims act so much together eventually people will look at them as one body) What does it has to do with this?!?! We want Bin Laden dead or in prison and we suffer from Iraqi sponsered terror just as much as you do. We have the strongest army in the region, and we want to use it against our enemies. <img src="icon8.gif" border="0">

 

[woke25]

Originally posted by G-Man:<br /><strong>I saw it on the Israeli channel 2 news, so I can't give you any information, not even in hebrew.<br />The situation here is very bad. Last night a Palestinian shot dead an Israeli in north Jerusalem. In retaliation the IDF entered Rammalah and arrested wanted Palestinians that appearantly planned the attack.<br />The IDF is also still in Jenin, after the bombing in a Nahariyah train station last sunday.<br />Israel says we won't withdraw untill Arafat promise not to launch anymore suicide bombers.<br /><start of cycle of violence><br />Arafat says he'll continue to fight untill Israel will withdraw from the entire west bank.<br />Israel says we'll only withdraw as part of a peace agreement.<br />Arafat wants to discuss the peace agreement now.<br />Israel says we won't discuss peace agreements untill there's a cease fire.<br /><end of cycle of violence. return to the start and read all over again.></strong><hr></blockquote>

Everybody knows that Israel doesnt want peace. For peace, they will have to give back land to Palestina. So they undermine the peace process in any possible way. Dont cry like a baby, who picks up the sword, will be brought down with the sword.

-Israeli keep on building settlements in Palestina territory.<br />-Unfair water distribution: Israeli can water their gardens, while palistinians dont even have drinking water.

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by woke23:<br /><strong>

Everybody knows that Israel doesnt want peace. For peace, they will have to give back land to Palestina. So they undermine the peace process in any possible way. Dont cry like a baby, who picks up the sword, will be brought down with the sword.

-Israeli keep on building settlements in Palestina territory.<br />-Unfair water distribution: Israeli can water their gardens, while palistinians dont even have drinking water.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Only a few mistakes...<br />- If Israel wouldn't like peace why would we sign the Oslo agreements in the first place?<br />- The Palestinians started this intifada, just like they started the first intifada.<br />- Israel is not building settlments - the people build them. If the Palestinians wouldn't start this intifada, this territory was theirs and people would need their permission to build there. But since they didn't want Barak's offers, and started fighting, now these are still Israeli territories, and Israel, being a free country, allowes it's citizens to build their homes wherever they want.<br />- In Israel people Can't water their gardens. We don't have enough water. In the PA people Do have drinking water provided by Israel for free.<br />And how can you say that the water supply isn't fair when the Palestinians get all their water from Israel? It's not fair that people in NY can use drinking water to extinguish the WTC fires, while in Israel we have to bring sea waters by hellicopters. But thats they way things are. Countries without natural water supply should find an alternate water supply. I don't recall anyone helping us when Syria tried to take our water... do you?

 

[drake]

Woke, I propose we change your handle to "god", seeing as you like to think you know everything.

What do you think?

 

[atawa]

- If Israel wouldn't like peace why would we sign the Oslo agreements in the first place? <hr></blockquote><br />Thought the man who signed that agreement got shot by one of your own people?

- Israel is not building settlments - the people build them. <hr></blockquote>

Are you really this ignorant??? It has been Israeli policy for years to let your fundi's build settlements in strategic places so the Palestinians cant claim those territory's in future negotiations (think of the ring around Jerusalem)

Furthermore the Israeli gouverment supports the racist dispelling of arab and palestinian people from Jerusalem.<br />But hey, who was South Africa's biggest allie in the days of apartheid? They learned well about 'thuisland' politics I'll give 'm credit for that.

And how can you say that the water supply isn't fair when the Palestinians get all their water from Israel? <hr></blockquote>

So you are saying that the palestinians dont have the right to take the water from the banks of the river on whose banks they are living?

And still these people claim to be the good guys <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Dont make me lough

 

[G-Man]

Ow, another of those idiots thinking they know everything and keep on talking without a single proof to their words... very well.

"the man who signed that agreement got shot by one of your own people?"

This murderer, Yig'al Amir, is now in prison for the rest of his life. Wasn't Gundy shot? Wasn't Martin luther king? But that doesn't mean that the majority of the people doesn't support their ideas.

<br />"Are you really this ignorant??? It has been Israeli policy for years to let your fundi's build settlements in strategic places so the Palestinians cant claim those territory's in future negotiations (think of the ring around Jerusalem)"

The Israeli constitution doesn't allow the goverment to prevent people from living on Israeli territory. For the same reason there are arab villages and towns built all over Israel.<br />The ring arround Jerusalem, as well as all other settlments, are to be handed back to the Palestinians in case of a peace agreements.

<br />"Furthermore the Israeli gouverment supports the racist dispelling of arab and palestinian people from Jerusalem.<br />But hey, who was South Africa's biggest allie in the days of apartheid? They learned well about 'thuisland' politics I'll give 'm credit for that."

Israel has never descriminated anyone. When the US and Europian countries still had descriminating laws, during the 50s and 60s, Israel already had total equality between jews, Muslims and people from other religions or places. Give me one, just one thing that Israel descriminates arabs. I can save you the effort and tell you there isn't any. I live here my entire life and can assure you that there isn't any descrimination going on here.

<br />"So you are saying that the palestinians dont have the right to take the water from the banks of the river on whose banks they are living?"

Actually, no waters are taken from the Jordan river. It would be deadly.<br />Also, I ment that if they get the same conditions as Israelis but without paying for it, it's hard to say we're unfair.

<br />"And still these people claim to be the good guys"

I never said we're the good guys. What I am saying is that Israel has the right to solve this conflict by negotiations, not by fighting untill one side gives up.

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

Originaly posted by G-Man:

"Are you really this ignorant??? It has been Israeli policy for years to let your fundi's build settlements in strategic places so the Palestinians cant claim those territory's in future negotiations (think of the ring around Jerusalem)" (above was posted by attawa)

The Israeli constitution doesn't allow the goverment to prevent people from living on Israeli territory. For the same reason there are arab villages and towns built all over Israel.<br />The ring arround Jerusalem, as well as all other settlments, are to be handed back to the Palestinians in case of a peace agreements.<br /><hr></blockquote>

Sorry G ,but i find it hard to believe that.These settlements are just "too convinient" in peace talks.Furthermore ,i never heard of arab settlements in the middle of Israel (and i seriously doubt that would be possible ,or even allowed) <br />As i recall (but i'm not sure of this) it were the settlements around Jeruzalem (and others) that made the recent peace agreements partially fail.

I don't say that my words are a fact.But that the Israeli goverment wouldn't support the settlement building? That just sound's too crazy.Maybe it's just unofficial.Who the hell (as civilian) would want to build a new settlement between Palestinian town's full of "terrorists"?<br />Besides ,i think that in conflict times (thus most of the time) the settlement's are protected by the Israeli army.

Control over infrastructure is important in the palestinian terretories.

 

[G-Man]

Actually, the reason for the failure of the recent peace talks was Jerusalem itself.

About the arab settlments - There are over a million arabs in Israel (a lot if you consider we're a 6 million people country). They have to live somewhere. I live 2 miles from an arab village (beit zarzir). I can see it from my window, as well as another arab village (manshia zveda). Israel's largest city, Tel Aviv, has a large arab population, as the city is connected to the mostly arab Jaffa.<br />Israeli goverments reallly can't tell people not to build somewhere. Israel is built on the foundations of zionizm, and zionizm says Israelies should live wherever they want inside the borders of Israel.<br />The settlments are protected by the IDF, just like any other part of Israel. We have no choice. But maybe, if all goes well, in a few month Israel will withdraw from all settlments, Palestinians will agree to have only a part of east Jersalem (that was the problem. Barak offered them a few nehibourhoods, they wanted all east Jerusalem) and everything will be fine... <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <br />About the settlers themselves - I don't really know what they're looking there... Most of them are religious people not wanting to give up the land of biblical Israel... But when the peace will be signed they'll have to leave. Just like we did in Sinai. Israelies settled in Sinai, but when the peace with Egypt was signed, they had to leave.

<br />And to atawa - I would prefer it if you could talk like TheDuckOfFlanders - Not saying baseless thing, rather saying reasonable things, questions, ideas, etc.

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

first of all:

And to atawa - I would prefer it if you could talk like TheDuckOfFlanders - Not saying baseless thing, rather saying reasonable things, questions, ideas, etc.<br /> <hr></blockquote>

Thank's man <img src="icon12.gif" border="0"> ,You can talk quite constructive too,And i'm quite interrested in learning more about Israël.Though i won't take everything as a fact ,i won't believe everything that people say to me ,but i like discussions.About Attawa: i guess he'll better try to use more diplomacie if he post's something ,but i guess he will learn too. (as most of us do i guess)<br />Diplomacie is an artform on this bord. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

anyway ,about the discussion:

About the arab settlements - There are over a million arabs in Israel (a lot if you consider we're a 6 million people country). They have to live somewhere. I live 2 miles from an arab village (beit zarzir). I can see it from my window, as well as another arab village (manshia zveda). Israel's largest city, Tel Aviv, has a large arab population, as the city is connected to the mostly arab Jaffa. <hr></blockquote>

1: Are they officialy civilians of Israel ,or are they civilians of some other nationality? I mean ,if they pay taxes to Israel, then they are just some sort of "half-assimilated" people.Cause i guess the Jewish settler's in the Palestinian terretories still have the Jewish nationality.(correct me if i'm wrong)<br />and:

The settlments are protected by the IDF, just like any other part of Israel. We have no choice. But maybe, if all goes well, in a few month Israel will withdraw from all settlments, Palestinians will agree to have only a part of east Jersalem (that was the problem. Barak offered them a few nehibourhoods, they wanted all east Jerusalem) and everything will be fine... <hr></blockquote>

2: Those Arab setllements ,do they have "protection"? <br />I don't know if Sharon is prepared to give up all settlement's ,givven:

About the settlers themselves - I don't really know what they're looking there... Most of them are religious people not wanting to give up the land of biblical Israel... <hr></blockquote>

3: Isn't Sharon mainly ellected by those sort of people?<br />4: would the general public agree with that?

Just like we did in Sinai. Israelies settled in Sinai, but when the peace with Egypt was signed, they had to leave.<br /><hr></blockquote>

5: correct,but arn't the west-bank settlements and especialy the Jeruzalem settlement's not of a far much greater importance?

I still find it strange that on that so-super important temple mountain ther still stand's a Mosque.Givven the conflict and the importance of the site ,i thought it would have been destroyed by now.I even would have hoped it.Maybe then Israeli's and palestinian's could have builded a new temple toghether.Eventually it's the same god.<br />And building such a feat toghether would have givven a strange feeling of maybe unity.

I konw i think strange things sometime <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Smoke]" /> ,i guess i'm sometimes a bit "opportunistic".

 

[atawa]

Ow, another of those idiots thinking they know everything and keep on talking without a single proof to their words... very well. <hr></blockquote>

At the UN conference in South Africa most country's in the world wanted to proclaim Israel a racist nation in the final text, only after huge pressure from the EU country's ( Israel and the US had left allready)

facts:<br />Palestinian refugees have been perhibited to return to their land and homes.<br />Imigration for arabs or palestinians is a lot more dificult then for people with jewish ancestors.<br />Building a house in or around jerusalem is almost impossible for muslim people. And everyday there are new houses build for jewish people.

<br />

Give me one, just one thing that Israel descriminates arabs <hr></blockquote>

I just gave you 3 I think.

And to atawa - I would prefer it if you could talk like TheDuckOfFlanders - Not saying baseless thing, rather saying reasonable things, questions, ideas, etc. <hr></blockquote>

I think the biggest mistake the Israeli gouvernment ever made is refuse the refugees to return to their homelands, now you have a whole generation who was born and raised in basic camps who can see on the television how the people who, in their view, kicked them of their homelands and refuses to let them return. <br />This is the ideal breeding ground for extremists, add to that the settlement and imigration policys and you can count on it to explode some day.

And btw kutje I dont think I know everything, but I wonder if you know there is not only your side to this story. Imho you paint a rather onesided picture to the whole story, since the WTC bombing there seems to be an atmosphere of hate and distrust to muslims in general and palestinians in specific, I just wanted to show both sides are just as bad.<br />I hope for all people there the conflict can be resolved soon but I have great doubts about it <img src="icon9.gif" border="0">

[ September 19, 2001: Message edited by: atawa ]</p>

 

[G-Man]

to TheDuckOfFlanders

1. Arab Israelies have all rights and duties that all other Israelies have. In the goverment institues in arab populated area (schools, etc, in arab villages, nehibourhood and towns) the official language is arabic.<br />2. Arab villages and towns are protected almost as jewish towns. That "almost" is because it's very unlikely that a Palestinian terrorist would plant a bomb in an arab village. Still, places like east Jerusalem or Um el fahem are protected by Israeli police and army.<br />3. No, Sharon's likud party was supported by them untill 8 years ago, when the Sha"s party was formed. Today almost all settlers are supporting shas or one of the other religious parties. However, Sharon is getting support from non - religious settlers that lived there before 1993 when Rabin agreed to give the Palestinians the west bank. These people usually have a strong connection to the area, as some families lived there for 5-6 generation. <br />4. The general public is a lot like the people in NY. In NY the public wants the towers to be rebuilt, although experts say it's too dangerous, And that it would be economicly better to build smaller towers. The same in Israel - people know that it would be better without settlments, but they aren't willing to give up something because of terror. If there'll be a peace agreement that doesn't include returning all east Jerusalem, I'm pretty sure there'll be a large majority for giving back all settlments.<br />5. The settlments aren't, but Jerusalem is extremly important. People in Israel don't consider new nehibourhoods in Jerusalem a settlment, they consider them a part of their capital. So in Jerusalem, jewish nehibourhoods like Gilo built on occupied territory, will probably not be given to the Palestinians, but we can probably give them some of the arab nehibourhod.<br />About the mosque on the temple mount - I don't think Israel will destroy it, not as long as there are Muslims in the world. If we destroy it people from Marocco to Indonisia will fight against us. It's the 3rd most important place to the Muslims.

<br />to atawa:

Israel do allow Muslim refugees to enter the country, but like other countries we only take a limited number of refugees each year.<br />Not for people with jewish ancestors - for jewish people. Thats because Israel was formed by people who escaped anti-jewish racism, so any jewish people have the right to come here. If you look at the PA, you'll see jewish people aren't even allowed to live there.<br />Didn't look at the Jerusalem map lately, have ya? It's serrounded by arab villages and towns, most of them already given to the PA.<br />Israel, like the US, UK, Australia, and oter democratic countries, have a limit on the number of refugees allowed into the country. We're already so overcrowded, farmers have to move to the desert (to places like Ein-Gedi)<br />About Durban - Most countries wanted to condemn Israel, except the US, EU, Australia, Japan, S.Korea, S.Africa, India and Canada. And that leaves us with all tyrannies and founmentalist goverments, known for their strong opposition to racism... <br />"Dont make me lough"

[ September 19, 2001: Message edited by: G-Man ]</p>

 

[atawa]

Ah well, maybe someday you'll open your eyes......

 

[G-Man]

I'm a man of science. Give me a proof and I'll believe you. But for now, all you do is talking. And you're not saying anything smart. You obvioussly know very little about Israel, so next time before starting to make stupid declarations I suggest you check what you're saying

[ September 19, 2001: Message edited by: G-Man ]</p>