Bismarck AI is 14 techs ahead in renaissance?!? wtf

RealHuhn

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Wow, I can't believe what just happened. Emperor, standard speed and map size.

I played as The Celts and rushed GLib/NC and quickly built 14 cities with Liberty and tons of faith. I even captured America's capital with a few pictish warriors.
I had pagodas in every city, picked a few happiness beliefs on top of that and my cities slowly finished all the essential buildings. Overall, things were going extremely well and I was the score leader.

However, on turn 170 (around 1100 AD) Bismarck surprisingly attacked me over the sea (!!) with gatling guns, privateers and riflemen.
Needless to say I wasn't prepared for that. I had 8 pictish warriors upgraded to pikemen, 2 trebuchets and 2 crossbowmen which usually isn't bad at all. I was fighting in the south against Arabia and their annoying camel archers though.
I quickly lost two cities.

I checked the demographics and I saw that he was 14 (!!!!!) techs ahead of the average civ. I was 2nd best with 9 techs behind him. (seriously, wtf :eek:)
I mean, look at my beakers per turn. Not bad at all. Faith is even better. :lol:
Spoiler :


His land in strategic view. As you can see, it's nothing special. :confused:
Spoiler :


I have never ever seen anything like this before.

Then I had a final idea.
Religious overview! He was the founder of Christianity. Interesting!
Spoiler :


His beliefs. Do you notice one little detail? Yes, Interfaith Dialogue :king:.
Spoiler :


Could he possibly bombed himself to riflemen by spamming missionaries? It's the only explanation I have ...

By the way, Arabia played quite well, too. He only had three cities and was completely surrounded by my land. I thought he wasn't a threat and focussed on building infrastructure. Then he attacked me with 10 camel archers, a few catapults and swordsmen. That was a tough fight. Germany made me ragequit then haha. :goodjob:

Anyone tried Interfaith Dialogue after the newest patch?
 

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Birdjaguar

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I wonder how much science one gets for each missionary action?
 

PhilBowles

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I wonder how much science one gets for each missionary action?

10 per 'heathen' pop in the host city - I used a missionary on the Iroquois holy city in one Korean game, getting 230 from two activations before turn 200.

Though there is something new about Bismarck's AI - he's very science-focused now. He beat me to a science victory when I'd been 6 techs ahead not long before, I can only assume by faith-spamming Great Scientists, although my spy informed me that Berlin was producing research for a few turns. My guess is that Bismarck gets ahead my maximising his production cities and then turning them to Research production - but he still needs quick Education to get there while everyone else is in the medieval era. I have to say I've never seen the AI take Interfaith Dialogue, even on the rare occasions I don't.

I'm looking forward to seeing just how much difference it makes not having a religion - in my current game (Emperor, Shuffle continents, 10 civs, Rome) one religion is still available to found and I'm at 150+ faith, so might get it, but everyone else is ahead of me. I'm 3rd of the 4 civs I know about scorewise, and the two leaders both have a religion. War with the Confucian Isabella is looming after she denounced my friend William and I denounced her back (followed by William and our mutual friend, the sadly rather pathetic Askia)...
 

StormEye

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I am going to try that founder belief in my next gameplay. Sounds extremely powerful, from the example I am seeing in this case.
 

RealHuhn

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Another thing I've noticed.

Look at the demographics again. His population is almost three times as big as mine (and I have 15 cities compared to his 4) :eek:.
I checked his wonders and he has the hanging gardens, the temple of artemis and is allied to a maritime city state. A pretty powerful combination for growth.

He already picked two social policies in Rationalism as well.

If that was planned, then props to the AI :goodjob:. It's still weird though because I've never seen an emperor AI with only four cities leading the tech race, let alone by 9 techs and 14 techs on average. Damn!
 

Gamewizard

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Literacy in demographics can be slightly misleading because some Civs beeline before finishing off cheaper techs such as sailing. Were you beelining a certain tech and left some cheap ones unteched? If so you were probably closer in tech to him than you think.

Anyways, it is still impressive that Bismark was doing so well techwise without the Great Library.
 

Tabarnak

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Nice to see that the AI can use the powered Tradition(with huge capital) approach ;)
 

PhilBowles

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Another thing I've noticed.

Look at the demographics again. His population is more than twice as big as mine (and I have 15 cities compared to his 4) :eek:.
I checked his wonders and he has the hanging gardens, the temple of artemis and is allied to a maritime city state. A pretty powerful combination for growth.

He already picked two social policies in Rationalism as well.

If that was planned, then props to the AI :goodjob:. It's still weird though because I've never seen an emperor AI with only four cities leading the tech race, let alone by 9 techs and 14 techs on average. Damn!

I just won a game as Korea in which my capital included the Hanging Gardens, Petra and the Great Lighthouse, where the surrounding terrain was mainly desert and sea, with wheat, fish and an oasis. Notwithstanding Dido's uselessness I had the greatest score and tech lead I've ever enjoyed in a game that ended before 1100 AD.

But yes, I think the AIs are programmed with more specific strategies in mind now, and for whatever reason and while he's as belligerent as ever, Bismarck really likes science. If he's doing in your game what he did in mine and turning his cities to research every so often, having those large cities will help him race ahead.

Anyways, it is still impressive that Bismark was doing so well techwise without the Great Library.

In the game where he beat me to the science victory, I'd had the GL, the PT, and the HST, and he still managed somehow.
 

RealHuhn

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I just won a game as Korea in which my capital included the Hanging Gardens, Petra and the Great Lighthouse, where the surrounding terrain was mainly desert and sea, with wheat, fish and an oasis. Notwithstanding Dido's uselessness I had the greatest score and tech lead I've ever enjoyed in a game that ended before 1100 AD.

But yes, I think the AIs are programmed with more specific strategies in mind now, and for whatever reason and while he's as belligerent as ever, Bismarck really likes science. If he's doing in your game what he did in mine and turning his cities to research every so often, having those large cities will help him race ahead.

Yeah, it's definately possible and a very powerful strategy but it requires micromanaging of great people and the AI is horrible with great people. Unless Firaxis improved it.

Literacy in demographics can be slightly misleading because some Civs beeline before finishing off cheaper techs such as sailing. Were you beelining a certain tech and left some cheap ones unteched? If so you were probably closer in tech to him than you think.

Anyways, it is still impressive that Bismark was doing so well techwise without the Great Library.
True, but I had every classical tech and a few renaissance techs like printing press, banking, astronomy etc. He was actually 9 expensive techs ahead of me.
 

Gamewizard

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Another thing to take into consideration is Research Agreements. How many did he sign?
 

PhilBowles

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Another thing to take into consideration is Research Agreements. How many did he sign?

Bismarck isn't one for making friends...

Yeah, it's definately possible and a very powerful strategy but it requires micromanaging of great people and the AI is horrible with great people. Unless Firaxis improved it.

The changes to Great People are generally AI-friendly, since less decision-making is required. Pop a GS and it just adds research points. There's no need to select somewhere to bomb with a Great Artist. It uses GGs and to a lesser extent Prophets moderately well. I don't know for sure how well it uses the others, but I haven't seen the formerly ubiquitous defend-with-a-Great Engineer tactic since G&K hit.
 

PhilBowles

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minor point is that your 220 bpt at turn 180 is about 1/2 (or more) what it should be.

Yet Bismarck's lead isn't just compared with him, it's with other AIs, who he says were doing worse tech-wise than him - for that matter I certainly never have 440 bpt by turn 180. There must still be some reason Bismarck is powering ahead of the competition.
 

Buccaneer

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Comparing to other AI is not a good judge, only a comparison to the human player. Now is the chance for a true challenge and go beat Germany before he beats you.
 

Zaimejs

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I am reading this after a few beers, but I don't understand how faith=science. I know I can get great scientists at rationalism... and I get a couple science per turn when I have a certain belief, but that's not 14 ahead.
 

PhilBowles

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I am reading this after a few beers, but I don't understand how faith=science. I know I can get great scientists at rationalism... and I get a couple science per turn when I have a certain belief, but that's not 14 ahead.

The Founder Belief Interfaith Dialogue gives you science for spreading your religion with missionaries (as long as the target city has more followers of another religion). Particularly if you use it against holy cities (which are resistant to changing faith and quickly revert back, so you have an essentially endless supply of people to convert), you can get upwards of 200 science per missionary (at an early cost of 200 faith), and 50% as much again if you have the Grand Mosque.
 

Adjuvant

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It's very powerful if you can use it at the "right times". They're like mini research agreements going off all over. They come at the consistent risk of diplo penalties, if you care about those.
 

Callonia

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Geez, no wonder why I haven't seen interfaith dialogues before, its always the religious civs grabbing it up first.
 

MadDjinn

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Yet Bismarck's lead isn't just compared with him, it's with other AIs, who he says were doing worse tech-wise than him - for that matter I certainly never have 440 bpt by turn 180. There must still be some reason Bismarck is powering ahead of the competition.

2 points in rationalism actually equals 3 (opener isn't counted) so he's got:

+15% for being happy (given for the AI)
+2 beakers/specialist (and that capital has a lot of them I'll bet)
+1 beaker/TP and full powered universities (+50%)

most likely if the AI went to the left side (fairly likely).

So it's not too surprising if the AI is ahead at that point (it got left alone on an island and decided to tech - which is rare, but happens now).

440 bpt by turn 180 is a lot less than you need to have for a tech VC by that point (higher diff levels), but the AI powers through via population so that Rationalism opener really helps them.

(side note: I had an AI finish the Apollo Project on turn 211 recently).

the other AIs didn't bother to tech, so it's not a real comparison.

I'm sure interfaith Dialogue helped, but not that much (especially the AI who'd have to ensure not to flip every city near them).
 
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