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Black America

Discussion in 'World History' started by Henri Christophe, Nov 18, 2020.

  1. Henri Christophe

    Henri Christophe King

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    Some sugestions to have at least one black leader in Americas

    Olmec-Xicalanca - 3Deer

    Haiti - Toussaint L'ouverture

    Palmares - Zumbi

    Seminole - Negro Abraham

    USA - Barack Obama

    Brazil - Nilo Peçanha
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2020
  2. Duke William of Normandy

    Duke William of Normandy King of England & Unofficial Welcoming Committee

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    Barack Obama is far too recent for Civilization 6. There's already a mod for Haiti. Seminole is the one I pick out of this group.
     
  3. Henri Christophe

    Henri Christophe King

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    And how about 3Deer leading the Olmec Civilization?
     
  4. Duke William of Normandy

    Duke William of Normandy King of England & Unofficial Welcoming Committee

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    Never heard of him before, unfortunately, so I don't have an opinion on him.
     
  5. caketastydelish

    caketastydelish Deity

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    Malcolm X
     
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  6. Duque de Ferro

    Duque de Ferro Chieftain

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    There is no black color in the human race, what exists are shades of brown.
     
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  7. BuchiTaton

    BuchiTaton Warlord

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    If a black painted figure turn him "african" then for sure Mesoamerica was full of "europeans" and "chinese" and of course Smurfs! Because there are not just black figures on many precolumbine murals, codex and figurines, but also white, yellow and even blue figures. Not to forget the brown ones, what are those, "arabs"?! Should have been hard for the red figurines to kill all of the other colors of people for the time spanish arrived because that is the only natives americans they found (in the eyes of a skin centered person)!

    Realy some people need to read actual works on archeology, history, genetic, anthropology and linguistic instead of force their pigmentocratic view of the world on cherry picked pieces of symbolic and abstract art. Or must we take for granted that japanese people are rainbow colored hair and eyes people just because Anime?
     
  8. Patine

    Patine Deity

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    Oh, you're not doing erasure of Native American civilizations to contrivedly and falsely declare them "Black," like the Olmecs and Seminoles again, are you? Please stop.
     
  9. Birch617

    Birch617 Warlord

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    Yeah i don't like this erasure of Native American identity with the Olmecs; like yeah i do think Black American history is important and there is a lack of representation in the Civ franchise, but please understand that indigenous people are very varied when it comes to facial features and the way they represent themselves
     
  10. Evie

    Evie Pronounced like Eevee

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    I have to say, as much as I think black history is severely undertold and underrepresented, I have to agree with the above posters about black Olmec based on interpretation of apparent racialized characteristics in ancient art to apply a much (muuuuuuch) later conception of races is dodgy, and end up erasing the history of another group who constantly get their history erased through dodgy pseudo-history.

    There is no credible ground for assuming the Olmecs were black.

    Toussaint L'Ouverture is by far the most promising option for Firaxis inclusion. Zumbi is probably the next best - fascinating history, solid sources, he would be a great if unexpected inclusion.

    3Deer is out because the source for the name is a Mayan inscription which a handful of writers speculate may be Olmec, and also for the reasons above. Obama, as others have said, is far too recent.

    Abraham is problematic for official inclusion because ultimately most scholarship indicate that he was a leader of the Black Seminole, not of the Seminole as a whole - and if the Seminole are to be added officially, they would certainly be added as Native, not African-America, and accordingly be led by someone who was a leader to both groups. For Abraham to lead them they would have to be specifically the Black Seminole, and that is likely too narrow to warrant a full civ. Plus, of course, there is the slight problem of a certain word in his name, which Firaxis likely does not want - though that could be solved by calling him just Abraham, or using the Muskogean name for him.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2020
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  11. Henri Christophe

    Henri Christophe King

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    Olmec-Xicalanca society isn't a African Society, but it's prefer a dark skin than a white one. Look the picture above, on left side there is a Yaqui, the white one, and on right side there is the king 3 Deer painting him self Black to be more black. In the middle we see 3 pardos, but just the darkner is right side and share the same legs with the king Olmec-Xicalanca.

    Is Olmecs Africans?

    Maybe Yes, the human been startated in Africa, if Vikings, Incas, Maori, Chineses, Phonencians, Spaniards cross the great sea once, why not the Olmecs cannot be the great sailors of an ancient time? Who knows? I don't believe all humans arrive in Americas just by Beringer.
    Brazil oldest human fossil is negroide as this Olmec picture.

    About Negro Abraham, as far as known there is no such thing as Black Seminole and they was a well integrated society. One of their leaders was Negro Abraham who fought and won battles againts Andrew Jackson
     
  12. Patine

    Patine Deity

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    Old cultures' artistic portrayals of themselves and the world are EXTREMELY FAR-OFF in any accuracy from actual physical appearances much of the time for numerous reasons. Taking this use of pigmentation at face value and so literally is not only naïve, it shows you're seeing what you want to see and not thinking of the matter rationally.

    Please, stop using this word, or "Caucasoid," or, "Mongoloid." They are obsolete and no longer hold any more validity, credibility, or respectability in any such conversations, and were constructs of a VERY RACIST 19th Century scientist who wanted to create an unrealistically over-simplistic paradigm of division of races. It has been debunked long ago. The anthropological division of races is now understood to be far more complex.

    The leaders is irrelevant. The culture and nation were Native American, not African-American. You seem unable to accept that.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2020
  13. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    https://www.semtribe.com/STOF/culture/faq---culture
    To clear things up here's a link from the official Seminole tribe website to answer some questions.

    As for the OImec we don't have many records or know their language so it doesn't matter because I doubt we'll see them as a full Civ.[/IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2020
  14. Birch617

    Birch617 Warlord

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    The things is that nobody is saying they are a white civilization either; your problem is that you are using the term Native American as a Race; which is wrong, the term is use to represent people from the continent, who were varied not only culture wise but ethnically, some natives are really ligth skinned while other have darker skin, but that doesn't make them black.
    Also using terms as pardo to describe pre-columbian art is kinda dumb, pardos is a colonial term for triracial individual.

    There is more proof of polynesian having some kind of contact with andean cultures but we don't call the Mapuche and Inca American Pacific Islanders.
    Also using the term Black American is used to refer to American with african ancestry.
    In general just accept that you are on some kind of pseudo history high horse and take the L
     
  15. Henri Christophe

    Henri Christophe King

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    In fact there is no classification of any type to be a Civ. Seminole are Native American who once had a leader mix race called Negro Abraham, and also another Mix race called John Horse as a good second option to become Seminole Leader.

    For me Black is a color, for example, Australians Aborigenes and South Indians (Dradivians) are also Black but they aren't African descend
     
  16. Patine

    Patine Deity

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    This was also the belief held by the 19th Century German Anthropologist who came up with the "three-race theory," you constantly spout. He WAS a racist, and he tried to create an unrealistic, ludicrous, and offensive over-simplified race division. He was been debunked, and those, like you, who continue to parrot his RACIST views of things are not given credibility or respect in circles that intelligently discuss these matters, but tend to be dismissed at best and taken offence to at worse. You HAVE to come to terms with this.
     
  17. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    Well if that's the case then President Barack Obama and Nilo Peçanha aren't black according to your pictures. :mischief:
     
  18. Patine

    Patine Deity

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    Everyone agreed with you, and there was no real contention, about Henri Christophe of Haiti for "at least one Black American civ in game." But that was never enough for you. You had to carry on and insist on dying on several other hills in unwinnable debates that showed a lack of understanding and education on these affairs and a callousness toward several Native American cultures and using oblique references with no real backing or credibility to attempt cultural erasure to portray as "Back Americans," when they were not, and constantly a theory of race division by a long debunked racist. Why is Haiti not enough?
     
  19. Birch617

    Birch617 Warlord

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    Yeah i think both Haiti and Palmares are really good representation of Black America and Caribbean America, so i don't understand this thing of messing with Indigenous representation
     
  20. earlc

    earlc Warlord

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    Lots of misinformation in this thread. Regarding the Seminoles during and before the Seminole Wars, there was allegedly a degree of integration between people of African descent, Indigenous Americans, and even people of European descent among them, but there were also separate groups of mostly or completely African descent or Indigeonous American descent. Black Seminoles most certainly were a thing during and before the Seminole Wars, and were distinct from the Seminoles mainly from Muscogee Creek background.

    The latter example of mostly separate but collaborating (and sometimes not collaborating) communities is well documented. I recall having trouble finding examples or evidence of fully integrated communities beyond the prevalence of important Seminoles that were said to be of mixed heritage, which is a poor indicator.

    I started working on a Seminole civ mod years ago when it was a total convoluted mess to work with the tools (not sure if it has improved since then), led by Osceola, but even as I was doing so I knew they weren't a great fit for the mechanics of a civ game. I had created a good list of historically accurate settlement names, but even then I think I had started to run out of names and ended up using some words from an old Seminole dictionary, which felt wrong. For the unique unit I used a musket base and I think I used the Seminole word for warrior or something like that. Besides the issues with making the mod itself, the fact that it didn't feel completely historically accurate or fitting for the game was enough for me to quit.
     
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